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Washington DC and The Holy Land>The Book of Revelation - Talk 1
Chiefshrink 11:43 PM 02-17-2021
The Book of Revelation when mentioned conjures up many thoughts and feelings among many Christians and non-believers alike and often is misunderstood to be extremely confusing and how can anyone make sense of it ? And yet it is a fascinating study and when studied accurately it is quite clear and concise on almost all events with just minor debate on a few minor issues. Nothing major.

My pastor, Jeff Schwarzentraub has started this series called "The Alpha and Omega" in which he now is starting the Omega(The Book of Revelation) and I thought it would be an informative listen for all those interested in the "End Times" of which we definitely live in for sure and to make sure your soul is prepared and what will occur in the near future. Pastor Jeff is a very gifted speaker and I assure you, you will not get bored.

Enjoy!!
https://bravechurch.online/sermon/why-teach-revelation
[Reply]
ClevelandBronco 12:12 PM 02-20-2021
Originally Posted by Ninerfan11:
Why do Godless libs keep commenting in threads like these?
Fear and envy were my biggest motivators to get involved in this type of discussion back in my atheist days. Don't count on them to admit it. The fear will be too strong in them.
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Randallflagg 12:35 PM 02-20-2021
Originally Posted by ClevelandBronco:
Fear and envy were my biggest motivators to get involved in this type of discussion back in my atheist days. Don't count on them to admit it. The fear will be too strong in them.

I told this story before, but this seems like a good time to repeat it: Viet Nam. My Brother was in the Marines and I was in the Army. He, (my Brother) went to Nam as an atheist and came home as an atheist.

I went to Nam as a Christian and came home as a Christian.

The sad part (at least for me) was seeing my guys in fire fights getting killed - screaming for their Moms and asking God to save them. It always ripped my heart out. God bless and keep those men and their families. I've always believed that God is not a vindictive God - He forgives all.
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Imon Yourside 03:11 PM 02-20-2021
Originally Posted by loochy:
What does he have against satin? It's a nice material...so soft and smooth.
The entire statement is mind blowin' and makes about as much sense as a soup sammich. :-)
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Chiefshrink 03:20 PM 02-20-2021
Originally Posted by Randallflagg:
I am not going to justify his "speech" except to say that in the Bible (and I'm sorry, I simply don't recall the book or the verse) but in it is states that the Jews are God's "chosen People" ahead of all others.

Make of that what you will. However, if God chose the Israelites as "His" people, that's good enough for me.
:-)
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Chiefshrink 03:22 PM 02-20-2021
Originally Posted by Ninerfan11:
That's OT though. Look at what Jesus said and Paul as well.
Question: "Why did God choose Israel to be His chosen people?"

Answer: Speaking of the nation of Israel, Deuteronomy 7:7-9 tells us, “The LORD did not set His affection on you and choose you because you were more numerous than other peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples. But it was because the LORD loved you and kept the oath He swore to your forefathers that He brought you out with a mighty hand and redeemed you from the land of slavery, from the power of Pharaoh king of Egypt. Know therefore that the LORD your God is God; He is the faithful God, keeping His covenant of love to a thousand generations of those who love Him and keep His commands.”

God chose the nation of Israel to be the people through whom Jesus Christ would be born—the Savior from sin and death (John 3:16). God first promised the Messiah after Adam and Eve’s fall into sin (Genesis chapter 3). God later confirmed that the Messiah would come from the line of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (Genesis 12:1-3). Jesus Christ is the ultimate reason why God chose Israel to be His special people. God did not need to have a chosen people, but He decided to do it that way. Jesus had to come from some nation of people, and God chose Israel.

However, God’s reason for choosing the nation of Israel was not solely for the purpose of producing the Messiah. God’s desire for Israel was that they would go and teach others about Him. Israel was to be a nation of priests, prophets, and missionaries to the world. God’s intent was for Israel to be a distinct people, a nation who pointed others towards God and His promised provision of a Redeemer, Messiah, and Savior. For the most part, Israel failed in this task. However, God’s ultimate purpose for Israel—that of bringing the Messiah into the world—was fulfilled perfectly in the Person of Jesus Christ.


Question: "Whom did Jesus die for? Did Jesus die for everyone?"

Answer: Exactly whom Jesus died for is a point of theological disagreement among evangelical Bible believers. Some Christians believe that Jesus died only for the elect; this is the doctrine of limited atonement, the L in Calvinism’s TULIP. Other Christians believe that Jesus died for everyone who has or ever will live; this is the doctrine of unlimited atonement, held by Arminians and most four-point Calvinists, or Amyraldians.

Limited atonement, sometimes called particular redemption, is based on the doctrine of election or predestination (Romans 8:30, 33; Titus 1:1). Since only the elect of God will be saved, the reasoning goes, Jesus must have died only for them. Otherwise, Jesus’ death “failed” those who are not elect. If Jesus died for everyone, then hell will be full of people for whom Jesus died—was His atonement insufficient? If Jesus died only for the elect, then His atonement perfectly accomplished its goal. Every person for whom Jesus died will be in heaven.

Unlimited atonement, on the other hand, says that Jesus died for everyone but that only those who respond in faith will reap the benefits of His sacrifice. In other words, Jesus’ death was sufficient for all, but only effectual for some (those who have faith). If Jesus did not die for everyone, the reasoning goes, then the offer of salvation is empty, because the non-elect cannot be saved. The teaching of unlimited atonement is based on verses such as 1 John 2:2, “He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.”

Precise theological thinking is a good thing. We are called to be students of the Word (2 Timothy 2:15). But on this point, it seems that most people follow a theological system to get to their answer, rather than the clear Word of God. If it were not for theological systems (namely, Calvinism and Arminianism), the question of whom Jesus died for would probably never come up—but it has come up! One side says that, if Christ did not die for all, then there can be no genuine offer of salvation. The other side says that, if Christ died for some who will never be saved, then His death in some sense fails to accomplish its purpose. Either way, there seems to be an attack upon God’s character or Christ’s work—either God’s love is limited or Jesus’ power is limited. This presents an unnecessary dilemma and creates a tension where none need exist. We know that God’s love is infinite (Psalm 107:1) and that Christ’s power is infinite (Colossians 1:16–17). The dilemma is a false one of our own making.

In short, the offer of salvation is universal—to all who will believe (Romans 10:11, 13). We also know that, regardless of how broad Christ’s atonement is, it is limited in some respect—it is effective only for those who believe (John 3:18).

John 10 provides more insight into the issue of whom Jesus died for. In that passage we see that Christ died for His sheep (John 10:11, 15). Also, all who are His sheep will come to Him (verses 4 and 27), and they are kept secure in Christ (verses 28–30). However, when we share the gospel, we don’t try to “pre-screen” the hearers of the message. We don’t delve into who are the elect or for whom Jesus may or may not have died. Those discussions would distract from the goal of evangelism. When presenting the gospel, we simply say, “Jesus died for your sin, and He rose again from the dead. His death is sufficient to pay for your sins if you will put your faith in Him.” This is a biblically accurate statement, and it avoids trying to get too specific. The preaching of the apostles in the New Testament doesn’t try to cut it more finely than that.
[Reply]
Chiefshrink 03:26 PM 02-20-2021
Originally Posted by Prison Bitch:
Will you be raptured PB or will you have to endure the tribulation thus accepting Christ then? Obviously this is a pre-trib question. For all I know you may be mid or post trib or no trib at all.
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Imon Yourside 03:32 PM 02-20-2021
Originally Posted by Chiefshrink:
Will you be raptured PB or will you have to endure the tribulation thus accepting Christ then? Obviously this is a pre-trib question. For all I know you may be mid or post trib or no trib at all.
No thanks for me on the rapture, I made a special deal to be left behind and wait for JESUS only coming.
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Chiefshrink 03:37 PM 02-20-2021
Originally Posted by Imon Yourside:
No thanks for me on the rapture, I made a special deal to be left behind and wait for JESUS only coming.
So you don't believe there will be a rapture then??
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Imon Yourside 03:40 PM 02-20-2021
Originally Posted by Chiefshrink:
So you don't believe there will be a rapture then??
c. 1600, "act of carrying off," from French rapture, from Medieval Latin raptura "seizure, rape, kidnapping," from Latin raptus "a carrying off, abduction, snatching away; rape"
[Reply]
Prison Bitch 04:35 PM 02-20-2021
Originally Posted by Chiefshrink:
Will you be raptured PB or will you have to endure the tribulation thus accepting Christ then? Obviously this is a pre-trib question. For all I know you may be mid or post trib or no trib at all.
I won’t ever be “raptured” since it’s not real and unscriptural.

It was invented by the kook John Darby and sold to dopey fundamentalists.
[Reply]
Chiefshrink 05:23 PM 02-20-2021
Originally Posted by Imon Yourside:
c. 1600, "act of carrying off," from French rapture, from Medieval Latin raptura "seizure, rape, kidnapping," from Latin raptus "a carrying off, abduction, snatching away; rape"
Originally Posted by Prison Bitch:
I won’t ever be “raptured” since it’s not real and unscriptural.

It was invented by the kook John Darby and sold to dopey fundamentalists.
We will agree to disagree.:-)


Question: "What is the difference between the Rapture and the Second Coming?"

Answer: The rapture and the second coming of Christ are often confused. Sometimes it is difficult to determine whether a scripture verse is referring to the rapture or the second coming. However, in studying end-times Bible prophecy, it is very important to differentiate between the two.

The rapture is when Jesus Christ returns to remove the church (all believers in Christ) from the earth. The rapture is described in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 and 1 Corinthians 15:50-54. Believers who have died will have their bodies resurrected and, along with believers who are still living, will meet the Lord in the air. This will all occur in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye. The second coming is when Jesus returns to defeat the Antichrist, destroy evil, and establish His millennial kingdom. The second coming is described in Revelation 19:11-16.

The important differences between the rapture and second coming are as follows:

1) At the rapture, believers meet the Lord in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:17). At the second coming, believers return with the Lord to the earth (Revelation 19:14).

2) The second coming occurs after the great and terrible tribulation (Revelation chapters 6–19). The rapture occurs before the tribulation (1 Thessalonians 5:9; Revelation 3:10).

3) The rapture is the removal of believers from the earth as an act of deliverance (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, 5:9). The second coming includes the removal of unbelievers as an act of judgment (Matthew 24:40-41).

4) The rapture will be secret and instant (1 Corinthians 15:50-54). The second coming will be visible to all (Revelation 1:7; Matthew 24:29-30).

5) The second coming of Christ will not occur until after certain other end-times events take place (2 Thessalonians 2:4; Matthew 24:15-30; Revelation chapters 6–18). The rapture is imminent; it could take place at any moment (Titus 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 1 Corinthians 15:50-54).

Why is it important to keep the rapture and the second coming distinct?

1) If the rapture and the second coming are the same event, believers will have to go through the tribulation (1 Thessalonians 5:9; Revelation 3:10).

2) If the rapture and the second coming are the same event, the return of Christ is not imminent—there are many things which must occur before He can return (Matthew 24:4-30).

3) In describing the tribulation period, Revelation chapters 4–19 nowhere mentions the church. During the tribulation—also called “the time of trouble for Jacob” (Jeremiah 30:7)—God will again turn His primary attention to Israel (Romans 11:17-31).

The rapture and second coming are similar but separate events. Both involve Jesus returning. Both are end-times events. However, it is crucially important to recognize the differences. In summary, the rapture is the return of Christ in the clouds to remove all believers from the earth before the time of God’s wrath. The second coming is the return of Christ to the earth to bring the tribulation to an end and to defeat the Antichrist and his evil world empire.


John MacArthur supports a pre-tribulation rapture and why.


[Reply]
theoldcoach 05:47 PM 02-20-2021
Originally Posted by Randallflagg:
I told this story before, but this seems like a good time to repeat it: Viet Nam. My Brother was in the Marines and I was in the Army. He, (my Brother) went to Nam as an atheist and came home as an atheist.

I went to Nam as a Christian and came home as a Christian.

The sad part (at least for me) was seeing my guys in fire fights getting killed - screaming for their Moms and asking God to save them. It always ripped my heart out. God bless and keep those men and their families. I've always believed that God is not a vindictive God - He forgives all.
I hear you, Brother.

Those heartbreaking wails are something that you never, ever forget. Especially when they come from guys with whom you have laughed and cried and bled. I held too many of their hands in those moments, my friend and I know that you did too. And as they begged for their Mom, I couldn't help but think about that poor Mother back home that was soon to receive the most unbearable news. And what it was going to do to her.

And then the stark reality hits you.......and you carry on, doing what you have to do.

I agree. God Bless those men. And God Bless the families that were torn apart in that forsaken jungle.

And God Bless and forgive us all.
[Reply]
Chiefshrink 06:11 PM 02-20-2021
Originally Posted by neech:
I have a theory CS, Satan does not know when when Christ will return so throughout history he preps a man to be the possible anti-Christ for when he comes back. Because Satan knows his days are numbered, he reads the Bible also. Matthew 4:6

Some as listed are:

Nero
Constantius
Hitler
Napoleon
Mikhail Gorbachev
Henry Kissinger
Various Popes
Emmanuel Macron
The Internet

Thoughts?

Question: "Who is the antichrist?"

Answer: There is much speculation about the identity of the Antichrist. Some of the more popular targets are Vladimir Putin, Prince William, and Pope Francis I. In the United States, former President Barack Obama, former President Donald Trump, and his son-in-law Jared Kushner (because of his role in the Middle East peace deals) are the most frequent targets. So, who is the Antichrist, and how will we recognize him?

The Bible really does not say anything specific about where the Antichrist will come from. Many Bible scholars speculate that he will come from a confederacy of ten nations and/or a reborn Roman empire (Daniel 7:24-25; Revelation 17:7). Others see him as having to be a Jew in order to claim to be the Messiah. It is all just speculation since the Bible does not specifically say where the Antichrist will come from or what ethnicity he will be. One day, the Antichrist will be revealed.

Second Thessalonians 2:3-4 tells us how we will recognize the Antichrist: “don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.”

It is likely that most people who are alive when the Antichrist is revealed will be very surprised at his identity. The Antichrist may or may not be alive today. Martin Luther was convinced that the pope in his time was the Antichrist. During the 1940s, many believed Adolph Hitler was the Antichrist. Others who have lived in the past few hundred years have been equally sure as to the identity of the Antichrist. So far, they have all been incorrect.

We should put the speculations behind us and focus on what the Bible actually says about the Antichrist. Revelation 13:5-8 declares, “The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise his authority for forty-two months. He opened his mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and his dwelling place and those who live in heaven. He was given power to make war against the saints and to conquer them. And he was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation. All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world.”
[Reply]
Prison Bitch 06:23 PM 02-20-2021
Originally Posted by Ninerfan11:
That's OT though. Look at what Jesus said and Paul as well.

Galatians 3:29 forever ended the lie of Jews being the “Chosen People”.
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Chiefshrink 06:32 PM 02-20-2021
Originally Posted by Prison Bitch:
Galatians 3:29 forever ended the lie of Jews being the “Chosen People”.
Question: "What is the purpose of the thousand-year reign of Christ?"

Answer: The Millennium (also known as the Millennial Kingdom) is the 1,000-year reign of Jesus after the Tribulation and before all the people of the world are sent to either heaven or hell. Jesus will reign as king over Israel as well as all the nations of the world (Isaiah 2:4; 42:1). The world will live in peace (Isaiah 11:6–9; 32:18), Satan will be bound (Revelation 20:1–3), and, at the beginning, everyone will worship God (Isaiah 2:2–3). The purpose of the 1,000-year reign is to fulfill promises God made to the world that cannot be fulfilled while Satan is free and humans have political authority. Some of these promises, called covenants, were given specifically to Israel. Others were given to Jesus, the nations of the world, and creation. All of these will be fulfilled during Jesus’ 1,000-year reign.

The Palestinian Covenant, also called the Land Covenant (Deuteronomy 30:1-10)
God has already fulfilled the personal aspects of the Abrahamic Covenant; Abraham did go to the Promised Land, he did have many descendants, and he is the forefather of many nations. Several hundred years after Abraham, Joshua led the Israelites to claim ownership of the Promised Land. But Israel has never possessed the specific boundaries that God promised in Genesis 15:18–20 and Numbers 34:1-12. Not even Solomon ruled over this particular area (1 Kings 4:21–24). Although he did reign from the River of Egypt to the Euphrates, he did not hold the area from Mount Hor to Hazarenan (Numbers 34:7–9)—into present-day Lebanon and Syria. In addition, the covenant God made with Abraham was that he and his descendants would have the land forever (Genesis 13:15; 17:8; Ezekiel 16:60). The current Israeli state may be a step in this direction, but they still do not possess the boundaries God laid out.

The Davidic Covenant (2 Samuel 7)
God’s covenant with David was that his line would never die out and that David’s heir would sit on the throne of Israel forever (2 Samuel 7:16). Biblical scholars agree that Jesus is the fulfillment of this covenant—one of the reasons His genealogy is given for both His adoptive father (Matthew 1:1–17) and His mother (Luke 3:23–38). The Jews understood this when they laid down palm branches and their cloaks as Jesus rode into Jerusalem (Matthew 21:1–17). They expected Him to be a military/political leader that would liberate them from the Romans and make Israel a great nation again. But they didn’t understand the nature of Jesus’ work at the time was for the New Covenant, not the Davidic Covenant. The 1,000-year reign will be the beginning of Jesus’ reign over Israel and the earth (Revelation 20:4, 6).

The New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:31-34)
The work of the New Covenant—Jesus’ death and resurrection to reconcile hearts to God—has been accomplished. But we have not yet seen the complete fulfillment. Jeremiah 31:33 says, “But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people.” Ezekiel 36:28 gives more specifics: “You shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers, and you shall be my people, and I will be your God.” Isaiah 59:20–21 explains that this covenant is possible because of the Redeemer, and the reconciliation He provides will last forever. This covenant does not mean that every Jew will be saved. But it does mean that Israel as a nation will worship their Messiah. The Old Testament prophets who spoke of this covenant, including Isaiah, Jeremiah, Hosea, and Ezekiel, all wrote that it will be fulfilled in the future. From their time on, Israel has yet to be an independent nation that worshiped its Messiah (Romans 9—11). They will be in the 1,000-year reign of Christ.

Other Promises
Those are the covenants God made with Israel that are to be fulfilled in Jesus’ 1,000-year reign, but the Bible lists other promises that will be fulfilled, too. God promised Jesus He will make His enemies a footstool, and that Jesus’ followers will worship Him freely (Psalm 110). God promised the nations of the world that they would live in peace with Jesus as their ruler (Daniel 7:11–14). And He promised creation that the curse would be lifted (Romans 8:18–23), animals and the earth would be restored to peace and prosperity (Isaiah 11:6–9; 32:13–15), and people would be freed from disease (Ezekiel 34:16). These, too, will be fulfilled during the 1,000-year reign.

The main purpose of Jesus’ 1,000-year reign is to fulfill the prophecies given to Israel and the promises made to Jesus, the nations, and the whole earth. God’s covenants were voluntary and one-sided. He promised He would bless Israel and restore the world in specific ways, and He will.

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