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Washington DC and The Holy Land>Saudi Scum
NinerDoug 06:35 PM 10-10-2018
And these animals are supposed to be our ally......

https://www.npr.org/2018/10/10/65626...ing-journalist

Trump Administration Presses Saudis For Information On Missing Journalist

More than a week has passed since Saudi writer Jamal Khashoggi vanished after visiting the Saudi Arabian consulate in Istanbul. Turkish authorities are telling journalists what they think happened, citing released video footage: that Khashoggi was targeted and murdered.

President Trump said Wednesday that he has spoken to the Saudi government "at the highest levels" about the situation.

"We cannot let this happen to reporters, to anybody. And we're going to get to the bottom of it," Trump said. He said the first lady's office was making arrangements to bring Khashoggi's fiancée, Turkish national Hatice Cengiz, to the White House.

In the days since Khashoggi disappeared, there have been few signs that the Trump administration was putting pressure on Riyadh to explain what had happened.

But in a statement Wednesday, White House Press Secretary Sarah Huckabee Sanders said that National Security Adviser John Bolton and Trump adviser Jared Kushner spoke to Saudi Arabian Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman yesterday about the matter. Secretary of State Mike Pompeo also spoke with the crown prince "to reiterate the United States' request for information," Sanders said.

The Washington Post reported on Tuesday that before Khashoggi disappeared, U.S. intelligence had intercepted communications in which the Saudis had been discussing a plot to abduct him. Khashoggi has been a contributing writer for The Post.

But on Wednesday, the State Department said the U.S. had no advance knowledge of Khashoggi's disappearance.

Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan has not directly accused Saudi Arabia of disappearing Khashoggi. He said if they have footage of Khashoggi leaving the consulate, they should release it, the Associated Press reports. Meanwhile, a newspaper close to Erdogan published the names and photographs of 15 Saudi men whom it said were sent to Istanbul to kill Khashoggi.

The version of events described by Turkish authorities is grisly. One Turkish security official told The New York Times that within two hours of arriving at the consulate, Khashoggi had been killed and dismembered with a bone saw that the Saudi team had brought. He compared the killing to the movie Pulp Fiction.

The Post obtained a series of surveillance video clips that purport to show movements involved in the killing or abduction of Khashoggi: the journalist entering the consulate; a black Mercedes leaving the consulate and then arriving at the consul general's house; Cengiz, his fiancée, pacing outside the consulate as she makes phone calls; the Saudi men leaving an Istanbul hotel and getting on planes at the airport. The Post notes that the clips have inconsistent time stamps at one point, are too blurry to make out key license plate numbers and are heavily edited throughout.

Khashoggi is a resident of the United States and has been living in Washington, D.C. The journalist is the former editor-in-chief of a Saudi newspaper and was an adviser to Saudi government officials. Khashoggi had written columns critical of the Saudi government in The Post in the past year.
In an op-ed published in The Post on Tuesday, Khashoggi's fiancée implored Trump and the first lady to become involved in the search for answers.

"I also urge Saudi Arabia, especially King Salman and Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman, to show the same level of sensitivity and release CCTV footage from the consulate," Cengiz wrote. "Although this incident could potentially fuel a political crisis between the two nations, let us not lose sight of the human aspect of what happened. Jamal is a valuable person, an exemplary thinker and a courageous man who has been fighting for his principles."
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NinerDoug 06:04 PM 12-06-2018
Originally Posted by Easy 6:
Niner, please read this...

http://thefederalist.com/2018/12/06/...-u-s-reaction/
Thanks for posting.

Originally Posted by patteeu:
Excellent article
Originally Posted by Fish:
Excellent article? LOL. It's just straight up whataboutism. It's not OK in either case. The US is ignoring torture and murder from an ally. That should always be wrong.
Originally Posted by patteeu:
Don't be stupid (it's too late this time, but I mean in the future). The author's position is that it's not ok in either case, but that it shouldn't derail our foreign policy in either case either. It can't be whataboutism if he isn't being inconsistent himself.

BTW, "It's whataboutism" isn't an argument.
Seems to me we a lot of leverage with the Saudis. We are now the world's largest oil producer. If Saudi Arabia cuts production, the price of oil goes up, making our production more financially feasible. They would love to end fracking. They can't do it by cutting production.

They are also dependent on us for arms. My understanding is that they essentially have an American made military. They can't just start buying from some other country. The new weaponry will not be compatible with the existing weaponry.

They are one of the World's worst human rights violators. As long as we are not asking too much (do away with veils, for example), seems to me they will blink. On this particular issue, there are also rivals who would love to see the crown prince fall from grace.
[Reply]
patteeu 06:27 PM 12-06-2018
Originally Posted by Fish:
This is biased amateur hour opinion.
Thank you for your biased amateur opinion.
[Reply]
patteeu 06:30 PM 12-06-2018
Originally Posted by NinerDoug:
Thanks for posting.







Seems to me we a lot of leverage with the Saudis. We are now the world's largest oil producer. If Saudi Arabia cuts production, the price of oil goes up, making our production more financially feasible. They would love to end fracking. They can't do it by cutting production.

They are also dependent on us for arms. My understanding is that they essentially have an American made military. They can't just start buying from some other country. The new weaponry will not be compatible with the existing weaponry.

They are one of the World's worst human rights violators. As long as we are not asking too much (do away with veils, for example), seems to me they will blink. On this particular issue, there are also rivals who would love to see the crown prince fall from grace.
Sure, we have leverage. We could also go to war with them because we have a much more powerful military. But blowing up our alliance isn't necessarily in our interest.

The author suggests continuing to "nudge" them along the path toward liberalization without damaging the alliance. That sounds good to me.
[Reply]
NinerDoug 06:36 PM 12-06-2018
Originally Posted by patteeu:
Sure, we have leverage. We could also go to war with them because we have a much more powerful military. But blowing up our alliance isn't necessarily in our interest.

The author suggests continuing to "nudge" them along the path toward liberalization without damaging the alliance. That sounds good to me.
I'm not suggesting going to war or blowing up our alliance. I'm suggesting using the leverage we have to push them to make this right (as much as it can be made right).

We've done it in the past with other allies, and kept them as allies.
[Reply]
Easy 6 06:36 PM 12-06-2018
Originally Posted by patteeu:
Thank you for your biased amateur opinion.

[Reply]
patteeu 06:49 PM 12-06-2018
Originally Posted by NinerDoug:
I'm not suggesting going to war or blowing up our alliance. I'm suggesting using the leverage we have to push them to make this right (as much as it can be made right).

We've done it in the past with other allies, and kept them as allies.
If they say the Crown Prince is untouchable and that that is a red line (which seems reasonable to me), do you accept that or do we play hardball with our leverage until the King chooses a new heir apparent?

IMO, you do what makes more sense for your foreign policy goals, not what would make sense in terms of our western sense of justice for the poor bastard who was killed. Humanitarian issues have a PR impact on us that should be part of the equation, but they shouldn’t be a primary driver.
[Reply]
NinerDoug 06:54 PM 12-06-2018
Originally Posted by patteeu:
If they say the Crown Prince is untouchable and that that is a red line (which seems reasonable to me), do you accept that or do we play hardball with our leverage until the King chooses a new heir apparent?

IMO, you do what makes more sense for your foreign policy goals, not what would make sense in terms of our western sense of justice for the poor bastard who was killed. Humanitarian issues have a PR impact on us that should be part of the equation, but they shouldn’t be a primary driver.
I would say yes. From what I hear, things seem to be going south for this guy in the Saud family as a result of this murder.
[Reply]
RaiderH8r 09:10 AM 12-07-2018
Originally Posted by patteeu:
If they say the Crown Prince is untouchable and that that is a red line (which seems reasonable to me), do you accept that or do we play hardball with our leverage until the King chooses a new heir apparent?

IMO, you do what makes more sense for your foreign policy goals, not what would make sense in terms of our western sense of justice for the poor bastard who was killed. Humanitarian issues have a PR impact on us that should be part of the equation, but they shouldn’t be a primary driver.
Fuck yes we play hardball. And playing hardball would simply be reciprocating Saudi behavior in response to American interest in this case. The Saudis had the balls to imply that they would drive up the price of oil to hamper our economic growth if we continued to question them about Kashoggi's disappearance. Again, as I've said time and again...until I could puke coat hangers...Fuck them. They don't swing the big dick, we do. Their relevance on the world stage continues to diminish. We don't need some fresh faced little peckerwood crown prince over there going rogue whenever he likes. This was a message to the world that he can do what he wants and we're impotent to do anything about it.

You can swing a dead cat and hit 100 princes over there, what is it about MBS that has everybody shitting in their knickers? Oh, that's right. Kushner's tight with him and will most certainly enrich the family coffers after using America's standing in the world to benefit himself post-Trump.
[Reply]
Fish 09:23 AM 12-07-2018
Originally Posted by RaiderH8r:
Fuck yes we play hardball. And playing hardball would simply be reciprocating Saudi behavior in response to American interest in this case. The Saudis had the balls to imply that they would drive up the price of oil to hamper our economic growth if we continued to question them about Kashoggi's disappearance. Again, as I've said time and again...until I could puke coat hangers...Fuck them. They don't swing the big dick, we do. Their relevance on the world stage continues to diminish. We don't need some fresh faced little peckerwood crown prince over there going rogue whenever he likes. This was a message to the world that he can do what he wants and we're impotent to do anything about it.

You can swing a dead cat and hit 100 princes over there, what is it about MBS that has everybody shitting in their knickers? Oh, that's right. Kushner's tight with him and will most certainly enrich the family coffers after using America's standing in the world to benefit himself post-Trump.
Well said. Funny how pat used to rail on past administrations for being soft on foreign policy, but wants to just turn around and present his ass in the air for the murdering Saudis.
[Reply]
HonestChieffan 09:30 AM 12-07-2018
Just sort of thinking of this entire deal.

The aggressive left wants Trump to "do something".

So, I wonder, forget Trump, what do we think that Obama would have done? Based on history and what we know of his FP efforts and dealing with ME Mavericks?

How would Hillary have approached this? She had some track record as SOS. I wonder what she would have done.

And really the question comes down to, looking forward say 10 years. What would the net net impact be on world events from any of these?

Or is this just a thing because Trump?
[Reply]
patteeu 09:57 AM 12-07-2018
Originally Posted by RaiderH8r:
Fuck yes we play hardball. And playing hardball would simply be reciprocating Saudi behavior in response to American interest in this case. The Saudis had the balls to imply that they would drive up the price of oil to hamper our economic growth if we continued to question them about Kashoggi's disappearance. Again, as I've said time and again...until I could puke coat hangers...Fuck them. They don't swing the big dick, we do. Their relevance on the world stage continues to diminish. We don't need some fresh faced little peckerwood crown prince over there going rogue whenever he likes. This was a message to the world that he can do what he wants and we're impotent to do anything about it.

You can swing a dead cat and hit 100 princes over there, what is it about MBS that has everybody shitting in their knickers? Oh, that's right. Kushner's tight with him and will most certainly enrich the family coffers after using America's standing in the world to benefit himself post-Trump.
You seem really emotional about the Saudis. If we’re comfortable in our position of superiority, we don’t need to prove it by cutting off our nose to spite our face.

I don’t care about MBS. I don’t know whether his rule would be better or worse for the US than any of his fellow princes. But I don’t think the killing in Istanbul should determine our course.
[Reply]
patteeu 09:58 AM 12-07-2018
Originally Posted by Fish:
Well said. Funny how pat used to rail on past administrations for being soft on foreign policy, but wants to just turn around and present his ass in the air for the murdering Saudis.
That makes no sense at all.
[Reply]
RaiderH8r 10:07 AM 12-07-2018
Originally Posted by patteeu:
You seem really emotional about the Saudis. If we’re comfortable in our position of superiority, we don’t need to prove it by cutting off our nose to spite our face.

I don’t care about MBS. I don’t know whether his rule would be better or worse for the US than any of his fellow princes. But I don’t think the killing in Istanbul should determine our course.
At the very least it's political malpractice not to leverage this into an off ramp for Yemen, more arms sales, etc. Look at it from the saudi perspective, is it worth it to keep MBS as crown prince? He aggressively stepped over and pushed aside others to get there. Certainly we can find one who won't piss on our shoes and tell us its raining. What does MBS bring to the table for SA that he's so indispensable?
[Reply]
HonestChieffan 11:41 AM 12-07-2018
Originally Posted by RaiderH8r:
At the very least it's political malpractice not to leverage this into an off ramp for Yemen, more arms sales, etc. Look at it from the saudi perspective, is it worth it to keep MBS as crown prince? He aggressively stepped over and pushed aside others to get there. Certainly we can find one who won't piss on our shoes and tell us its raining. What does MBS bring to the table for SA that he's so indispensable?

Interested in your ideas.

What exactly is an "off ramp for Yemen"? And is there any such thing as malpractice in politics?

You support more ars sales...are you suggesting the US can ask the Saidis to buy more guns and ammo and such to atone for killing this guy? Is money the way to gain forgiveness?

The Saudi's will have to internally deal with MBS and his future, probably not a call any foreign power can make other than encourage them to do the best they can, allow them to save face, and move forward. Dont you agree?
[Reply]
GloryDayz 11:42 AM 12-07-2018
Originally Posted by Fish:
Well said. Funny how pat used to rail on past administrations for being soft on foreign policy, but wants to just turn around and present his ass in the air for the murdering Saudis.
Equally funny how y'all now want to go to war with them. :-)
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