PB might not be completely wrong. I remember when there was alot of talk from the Dan's about showing Edgar and Moore the door. Then they started winning and Edgar called out the fan base for not attending games. [Reply]
Originally Posted by Titty Meat:
PB might not be completely wrong. I remember when there was alot of talk from the Dan's about showing Edgar and Moore the door. Then they started winning and Edgar called out the fan base for not attending games.
With the Caveat that I'm not a fan of Matheny as the manager for the bullpen management, etc. (plus, there are just better candidates out there), "the sky is falling if he's hired" surprises me. Edgar - to the end - was a mental midget on tactical matters and never was easy to like for many due to his public abrasiveness, but despite his reputation in Milwaukee, he actually did grow as a human being and went from tight, nervous and player-unfriendly to a players manager for the most part. Turns out, that was what the team needed, despite my objections to his continuing as the Royals manager into their WS years. I'm OK with being wrong...he was the right guy for that group and he had a bullpen he couldn't screw up.
Having said that, don't discount that Matheny might have been put through some sort of protocol over the past year to grow as a manager of people. People can change and do change. Happens all the time. I'm surprised that so many people - that I assume would want to be given the benefit of the doubt in being teachable and changeable - would use their issues with Religion or outright religious bigotry as a means of denying the same for Matheny. Maybe let this play out before being a bunch of nancies about the possibility of a terrible clubhouse manager being given a 2nd chance. I hope it's not with the Royals for reasons stated above, but I won't go "sky is falling" like so many on CP seem to do as a reflex to everything. [Reply]
Originally Posted by Titty Meat:
PB might not be completely wrong. I remember when there was alot of talk from the Dan's about showing Edgar and Moore the door. Then they started winning and Edgar called out the fan base for not attending games.
And while you have no reason at all to remember this - I was arguing with the folks that really hated Yost because I saw what he did in Milwaukee and thought he was going to be a really good manager for y'all.
That doesn't mean he didn't make mistakes (everyone does) or that I didn't flip Royals fans shit when he did, but I was a fan of Yost from the moment you guys named his as a bench coach and told any Royals fan that would listen that you were getting a good one.
Don't try to act like Yost and Matheny are the same guy - they are not. Matheny is a mouth-breathing half-wit and will absolutely be a disaster for your squad. [Reply]
Originally Posted by DJ's left nut:
And while you have no reason at all to remember this - I was arguing with the folks that really hated Yost because I saw what he did in Milwaukee and thought he was going to be a really good manager for y'all.
That doesn't mean he didn't make mistakes (everyone does) or that I didn't flip Royals fans shit when he did, but I was a fan of Yost from the moment you guys named his as a bench coach and told any Royals fan that would listen that you were getting a good one.
Don't try to act like Yost and Matheny are the same guy - they are not. Matheny is a mouth-breathing half-wit and will absolutely be a disaster for your squad.
You know way more about baseball then I ever will. I was simply looking at the record, his WS appearance, and what's been talked about as far as game management many were critical about Ned too. Yosted was a popular term in this town.
I look at the other name being thrown around and it doesnt wow me either. I think this team is 3 years away from being competitive and that's if all these prospects weve been adding are anything.
In short DJ I dont buy that this team will be good in 3 years anyway. I dont think Moore is that good and struck gold by finding Ventura and pulling off that Grienke trade.
Whoever gets the job wont be here in 5 years. [Reply]
Originally Posted by Titty Meat:
You know way more about baseball then I ever will. I was simply looking at the record, his WS appearance, and what's been talked about as far as game management many were critical about Ned too. Yosted was a popular term in this town.
I look at the other name being thrown around and it doesnt wow me either. I think this team is 3 years away from being competitive and that's if all these prospects weve been adding are anything.
In short DJ I dont buy that this team will be good in 3 years anyway. I dont think Moore is that good and struck gold by finding Ventura and pulling off that Grienke trade.
Whoever gets the job wont be here in 5 years.
While Yost also had tactical issues in Milwaukee, they weren’t as severe as Matheny (who was the worst bullpen manager in baseball and who also once used a pitcher who hadn’t pitched in a live game in a month in a do-or-did situation of an elimination game).
He also didn’t have a history of abusing relievers or of creating a bad clubhouse culture or being awful with young players.
Yost at least had a rep as a guy who was good with developing young players and building a strong rapport in his clubhouse - things that carried over in Kansas City.
He needed to improve tactically.
Much easier to smooth out a guy who has some nice qualities and just a rough edge or two than it is to smooth out a guy who is nothing but rough edges.
Matheny won games because he inherited a strong roster with tremendous depth, coming off a World Series win. His record as a manager is a false positive.
There’s a reason the guy was a failed real estate investor who was coaching Little League when the Cardinals came calling. [Reply]
Originally Posted by Titty Meat:
You know way more about baseball then I ever will. I was simply looking at the record, his WS appearance, and what's been talked about as far as game management many were critical about Ned too. Yosted was a popular term in this town.
I look at the other name being thrown around and it doesnt wow me either. I think this team is 3 years away from being competitive and that's if all these prospects weve been adding are anything.
In short DJ I dont buy that this team will be good in 3 years anyway. I dont think Moore is that good and struck gold by finding Ventura and pulling off that Grienke trade.
Whoever gets the job wont be here in 5 years.
My concern would be that Matheny could easily get in the way of the Royals being good in 5 years.
Now if Moore (and really Sherman) is fine installing Matheny as something of a fall guy for the 3 year bridge period that I think most will concede needs to take place before the Royals are really ready to contend for the division again - that's fine. If Sherman's playing 5d chess, then he's giving Moore enough rope to hang himself so he can eventually install his own people from the top down.
Totally fair at that point. If he's just the means to an end; a way to fully and finally cut the cord and close the door on the DM era Royals, I can understand that and probably even applaud the Machiavellian nature of it all.
But lord help you if you let him get his hands on Singer, Kowar, Bubic or Lynch. I suspect even Matheny can't fuck up Witt (though he did a number on Kolten Wong).
Just don't let him near your young starters. I will foreover weep at the fact that Trevor Rosenthal came to the big leagues with a starter's background, 98 mph velocity that held into the 7th, a big league curve and a knockout changeup....and was slowly destroyed by being hammered into the bullpen where his development was ignored until he blew up. I've never seen an organization handle a truly elite pitching prospect so poorly in my life.
Wacha was wrecked, Weaver was mishandled, Matheny only owes Siegrist about $30 million in career earnings after turning him from a 98 mph lefthanded monster to dust in the span of 3 seasons. I try really hard not to blame him for Reyes because the problems with Reyes started by letting him overload in the minors to find more velocity, but the major implosions came on the big league roster including letting him pitch an inning when his velocity had fallen 10 mph mid-inning and leaving him out there with a muscle detachment that worsened. And the injury cycle began when Matheny needed a new reliever after ripping through several the big league level so Reyes was removed from a starters routine and broke down.
Guys like Maness are kinda sad and Bowman kinda funny (because those guys were fungible and by the end Bowman would've looked more comfortable throwing lefthanded than the shotput delivery he was using to get around the screaming pain in his labrum...Matheny didn't care and sent him out there to die anyway).
But do not underestimate how quickly this man can do long-term damage to your squad. I mean hell, if Buttfuck McGee doesn't lose the Cardinals the 2014 NLCS by pulling Lackey way too early in game 3 and praying Choate wouldn't suck after sucking all season, then using Wacha in extras in game 5 when he hadn't pitched in a month - Oscar Taveras isn't dead in the DR on 10/26 if he's got a game to play that day...
Yeah, it's unfair. But the Cardinals shoulda still been playing baseball the day OT died. They weren't because Mike Matheny is a shit for brains.
Don't hand waive shit for brains, if even for a season or two. You never know where it can come back to bite you. [Reply]
Originally Posted by duncan_idaho:
While Yost also had tactical issues in Milwaukee, they weren’t as severe as Matheny (who was the worst bullpen manager in baseball and who also once used a pitcher who hadn’t pitched in a live game in a month in a do-or-did situation of an elimination game).
He also didn’t have a history of abusing relievers or of creating a bad clubhouse culture or being awful with young players.
Yost at least had a rep as a guy who was good with developing young players and building a strong rapport in his clubhouse - things that carried over in Kansas City.
He needed to improve tactically.
He always had that Brewers team playing over its head, IMO. They were a team with a few good young players but were deeply flawed and had holes everywhere, yet he always had them competitive.
And then Doug Melvin does him dirty and fires him 2 weeks before the playoffs in 2008. I've never rooted so hard for the Phillies in my life when they waxed Milwaukee in the DS that year. I always respected the hell out of those Yost led squads because I knew they'd play hard (and yes, that LaRussa would out-manage him when it came time to start pulling levers; Yost wasn't ever a brilliant tactician).
Yost was a classic crusty baseball guy but for whatever reasons his players liked him. There's a difference between 'throwback' and 'breathtakingly stupid'.
I've mentioned this to you before, but from a strictly clinical, matter of fact standpoint I can confidently say that Mike Matheny appears to be one of the least intelligent public figures I have ever seen. I don't mean this disparagingly or as a pejorative. He's just dim. We all know a person or two that means well and may be genuinely great people, but is just soooooo duuuuumb. Mike Matheny is dumb.
In closing, I offer you this courtesy of the Twitters - Mike Matheny as Michael Scott is PAINFULLY on the nose...
Maybe it makes me a shitty person, maybe it doesn't but I think the fact that Matheny's religion is literally the only reason he'd get this job is a big time indictment on Dayton Moore and his decision making...
You can't give me a logical argument to hiring him unless like DJ said, John Sherman thinks Moore is a moron that got lucky and would like to fire him and feels this decision makes that easy. [Reply]