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Nzoner's Game Room>Ben Niemann
TLO 03:52 PM 09-11-2020
Ben Niemann
[Reply]
Chris Meck 10:11 AM 10-18-2020
Originally Posted by Megatron96:
Game film study. Some A-22.

He's not dumb. Generally speaking, he does what he's supposed to be doing. His problem is he lacks the size and speed to actually make plays.

But as for what goes on between his ears, he's actually decent, at least from what I can tell.

Take the Chargers game, for example. There were several plays where he apparently saw the play coming, he got himself into a decent position to make a play, but at the point of attack the RB or TE made a move and Niemann just wasn't a good enough athlete to adjust and make the play. Instead, he got a hand or two on the guy, but his feet were completely off the ground at that point and he wasn't able to finish. On one he should've had a tackle for loss, but again he just couldn't get the guy on the ground.

That's a lack of athletic ability, sure, but he showed solid football IQ deciphering the play and getting to the right spot.

And when he does make a tackle, he almost always is making a textbook tackle; he wraps them up, usually around the knees, and drives his shoulder through. His misses are usually when he has to leave his feet early, because he wasn't fast enough to get in a good position, so he ends up throwing himself at the guy.

IMO, he has the smarts and he's fundamentally sound, but he's just not a good enough athlete.
Agreed. I'm sure he'll be an excellent coach someday very soon.
[Reply]
PHOG 10:14 AM 10-18-2020
Almost everytime I see someone fly in and miss the tackle, I say to myself, "NIEMANN!!". :-)
[Reply]
ChiefsFanatic 10:42 AM 10-18-2020
Originally Posted by Megatron96:
Game film study. Some A-22.



He's not dumb. Generally speaking, he does what he's supposed to be doing. His problem is he lacks the size and speed to actually make plays.



But as for what goes on between his ears, he's actually decent, at least from what I can tell.



Take the Chargers game, for example. There were several plays where he apparently saw the play coming, he got himself into a decent position to make a play, but at the point of attack the RB or TE made a move and Niemann just wasn't a good enough athlete to adjust and make the play. Instead, he got a hand or two on the guy, but his feet were completely off the ground at that point and he wasn't able to finish. On one he should've had a tackle for loss, but again he just couldn't get the guy on the ground.



That's a lack of athletic ability, sure, but he showed solid football IQ deciphering the play and getting to the right spot.



And when he does make a tackle, he almost always is making a textbook tackle; he wraps them up, usually around the knees, and drives his shoulder through. His misses are usually when he has to leave his feet early, because he wasn't fast enough to get in a good position, so he ends up throwing himself at the guy.



IMO, he has the smarts and he's fundamentally sound, but he's just not a good enough athlete.
I have also watched the all-22, and while I agree that he does, at times, appear to recognize tendencies and formations from film study, allowing him to anticipate the play, I believe his lack of athleticism starts sooner than at the point of contact.

I think it starts when he picks his angle or line of attack. It's almost like in his mind he is two steps faster than his actual body can move, and he chooses a path that is too steep, which results in him usually being inside of where he needs to be to meet the ball carrier or receiver. And he ends up reaching instead of tackling with his body. Or, he ends up getting hung up in the wash, effectively taking himself out of the play.

But, you are also correct that he isn't athletic enough to react to almost any move the offensive player puts on him. I have seen him whiff on a hesitation move, I have seen him whiff on a hard plant, I have seen him whiff on a shoulder fake, etc. etc.

Every time I see him on film, I think it's likely that DOD couldn't be any worse, and that Willie Gay absolutely couldn't be any worse. And I question what Spags sees that makes Niemann a better option, in his opinion, than those guys, the same way I question EB on why Keizer is TE2.

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[Reply]
htismaqe 10:43 AM 10-18-2020
Originally Posted by KCChiefsFan88:
It's pretty telling that Niemann is on pace to have the lowest PFF grade of any Chiefs player since PFF started grading players about 15 years ago.

That means a lower grade than the likes of William BURNTee, Kendsuck Lewis and Orlando Scandsuck.

That's bad.
PFF is garbage. Doesn't mean Niemann is good but PFF is pure fucking garbage.
[Reply]
htismaqe 10:45 AM 10-18-2020
Originally Posted by ChiefsFanatic:
I was not a Reggie Ragland fan. I think he was one of the worst starting linebackers the Chiefs have ever had. I think he would have been one of the worst backup linebackers the Chiefs have ever had. He was slow as shit, and was very bad at shedding blocks.

But Niemann doesn't even deserve to be a backup this season. He plays his position worse than arguably any player has played their position in the last 10 years for the Chiefs. Yes, he made a play in the Super Bowl, but his ceiling is that of a very good special teams player, and he isn't even close to reaching that ceiling.

Maybe we should just officially move Dirty Dan to linebacker, and play Thompson and Hamilton more, or just bite the damn bullet and give Gay all of Niemann's snaps at LB, and just live through the growing pains of him learning his position on the fly. Or hell, at this point give Niemann's snaps to DOD. Because none of those options could actually perform worse than Niemann is already playing.

I think linebacker is the position that Veach has failed the most at so far in his young career. LB and CB used to be pretty close, but we suddenly have a pretty good secondary, that looks to have the potential to be an elite secondary if Sneed comes back and plays as well as he was before his injury.

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Sorenson is the 2nd worst player on the defense this year, after Niemann.

The eventual plan is for Gay to play. Gotta be patient. Throwing DOD out there is going to look exactly the same. He's terrible.
[Reply]
ChiefsFanatic 10:59 AM 10-18-2020
Originally Posted by htismaqe:
Sorenson is the 2nd worst player on the defense this year, after Niemann.



The eventual plan is for Gay to play. Gotta be patient. Throwing DOD out there is going to look exactly the same. He's terrible.
DOD is terrible, but he is considerably faster than Niemann. And if he was given the amount of game snaps that Niemann has been given, some improvement would be likely as well.

Dirty Dan will always be a Legend for the plays he made in the playoffs last year, but the truth is he has never really been as good as those plays were. But, it's been clear for a couple of years that he is going to be on the field, and that's just how it is. So, that's why I suggested moving him into Niemann's spot, and playing other safeties. I think Hamilton has been blah when he is out there, plus I don't think he played against the Ravens and the Chargers, but Tedric Thompson has flashed a bit here and there.

There really is no solid solution to this problem, because I just don't see Veach making any type of trade for a linebacker, when the offensive line needs bodies.

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[Reply]
htismaqe 11:15 AM 10-18-2020
DOD will never get the snaps that Niemann is getting. That's how bad he looks in practice.
[Reply]
ChiefsFanatic 12:33 AM 10-19-2020
Originally Posted by htismaqe:
DOD will never get the snaps that Niemann is getting. That's how bad he looks in practice.
You are right, he will never get those snaps. But he is faster and more athletic than Niemann. How bad does Niemann have to play before Spags decides that Niemann just isn't a productive player on game day?

The Chiefs have lots of training camp legends who just couldn't play at an NFL level when the games counted. How long does Niemann get to continue to play poorly because he made one play in the Super Bowl, and a few plays in practice?

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[Reply]
Pushead2 03:12 AM 10-19-2020
Frank Zombo Pt. 2
[Reply]
Dunerdr 07:08 AM 10-19-2020
Ok guys, i met a guy at a bowling alley who says he can do succesful brain transfusions. Lets kidnap mr nieman and put his brain in DOD. that paired with willie gay and hitchens should be good enough for something.
[Reply]
htismaqe 07:14 AM 10-19-2020
Originally Posted by ChiefsFanatic:
You are right, he will never get those snaps. But he is faster and more athletic than Niemann. How bad does Niemann have to play before Spags decides that Niemann just isn't a productive player on game day?

The Chiefs have lots of training camp legends who just couldn't play at an NFL level when the games counted. How long does Niemann get to continue to play poorly because he made one play in the Super Bowl, and a few plays in practice?

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Niemann is going to continue to play until somebody else proves they can play the defense correctly.

Coaches won't tolerate guys that can't play within the scheme. That's not really true of just the Chiefs, that's true of organized football from HS on up. If you can't execute what they're tell you to do, you're not going to get a lot of playing time.
[Reply]
Chris Meck 11:35 AM 10-19-2020
Originally Posted by PHOG:
Almost everytime I see someone fly in and miss the tackle, I say to myself, "NIEMANN!!". :-)
Or Sorensen. They're the same guy at different positions basically.
[Reply]
Bill Brasky 11:36 AM 10-19-2020
It's insane how bad Niemann is at tackling, and a total fucking mystery how he ended up on a professional football team.

Dirty Dan isn't going to light the world on fire, but he's a hellova lot better at wrapping up than Niemann. And if he can't make the tackle, he'll deliver a nice hit. Niemann straight let's people by him without even slowing 'em down.
[Reply]
htismaqe 12:40 PM 10-19-2020
Originally Posted by Chris Meck:
Or Sorensen. They're the same guy at different positions basically.
They all look the same. :-)
[Reply]
bobhill 12:42 PM 10-19-2020
Niemann just needs to stick to special teams
[Reply]
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