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The Lounge>Testosterone. Discuss.
eDave 05:08 PM 10-14-2020
Is it an issue? How to counter?
[Reply]
Aspengc8 06:46 PM 10-17-2020
Originally Posted by RaidersOftheCellar:
I've been on and off TRT for 4 years (cypionate injections). At times it's been great but the effects always seem to taper off the longer I'm on it, with some fluctuations along the way. It's always been difficult for me to control estrogen and find the "sweet spot." I don't like using estrogen blockers because low E2 is way worse in my experience than high.

I just came off after 15 months of continuous use (had never been on longer than 4 months before this) because I was worried about complications and some blood tests that weren't ideal. I'm already regretting it and fighting the urge to go back, but I want to try the natural route for awhile. Thing is...it's impossible to mimic the body's natural balance when dumping in exogenous hormone.

From my experience, I think it's best to do relatively short cycles (3-4 months) with a 1-2 month break. Unless your body no longer produces testosterone. From what I've read lately, it seems that DIM might be a good alternative to estrogen blockers when on TRT. Anybody here use DIM?
What was your protocol? When you are injecting testosterone your body will do what it needs to in order to keep HPTA balanced. This is why you do not run an aromatase inhibitor or try to lower estradiol unless it is causing an issue. On a true TRT dose of <200mg week, you shouldn't need anything as your levels should be at or under 1100ng/dl, and that's a generous helping. Anything above 1100 your doc will lower your dose as you are in supra-physiological levels area (baby cycles). As your testosterone levels rise and fall, estradiol should with it and that needs to happen. If your doctor had you one some stupid protocol like one shot every two weeks, or even just weekly, he is spiking you hormones like a rollercoaster and your system is going to be all F'ed up. More frequent smaller doses will yield smaller lulls and you will feel so much better than weekly or (god forbid) bi-weekly injections.

Cycles of 3-4 months with 'downtime' in between is a waste of time. Your shutting your boys down for the blast period then when you stop injecting you will feel like crap as ALL your hormone levels start dropping. Any new substantial amounts of muscle tissue you built on said 'elevated' hormone levels will not be there for much longer. This is why guys that know what they are talking about always mention that if you are making the decision to pin, its a life decision.

Any doc that wants to put you on HCG + an aromatase inhibitor for hormone replacement you need to walk back out of the office.
[Reply]
RaidersOftheCellar 07:19 PM 10-17-2020
Originally Posted by Lilmrp117:
This sounds a lot like my experience. The estrogen blockers suck. Need to find a way to deliver the T without jacking up the estradiol. I'm liking the T cream on the scrotum so far. Maybe try the Natesto nasal spray? You can get a closer mimic to a natural rhythm.

I've tried dim but I like indole 3 carbinol better. Both of them only helped with estradiol a little so it might work if your estradiol is only slightly high.
When you say DIM only helped a little, are you talking about symptoms or blood levels? I tried it a few years ago and dropped it because it didn’t seem to have much of an effect on the numbers. But I think the theory is that it causes estrogen to metabolize into the “good” form that you want and helps to keep T and E in the proper ratio. I don’t think it’s supposed to have a big effect on serum E2 levels.

I’m curious about the cream. I’ve only done injections. Was it you who said that the cream doesn’t shut down your natural production of T and other hormones? I’ll be pretty ticked off if that’s true.
[Reply]
RaidersOftheCellar 07:48 PM 10-17-2020
Originally Posted by Aspengc8:
What was your protocol? When you are injecting testosterone your body will do what it needs to in order to keep HPTA balanced. This is why you do not run an aromatase inhibitor or try to lower estradiol unless it is causing an issue. On a true TRT dose of <200mg week, you shouldn't need anything as your levels should be at or under 1100ng/dl, and that's a generous helping. Anything above 1100 your doc will lower your dose as you are in supra-physiological levels area (baby cycles). As your testosterone levels rise and fall, estradiol should with it and that needs to happen. If your doctor had you one some stupid protocol like one shot every two weeks, or even just weekly, he is spiking you hormones like a rollercoaster and your system is going to be all F'ed up. More frequent smaller doses will yield smaller lulls and you will feel so much better than weekly or (god forbid) bi-weekly injections.

Cycles of 3-4 months with 'downtime' in between is a waste of time. Your shutting your boys down for the blast period then when you stop injecting you will feel like crap as ALL your hormone levels start dropping. Any new substantial amounts of muscle tissue you built on said 'elevated' hormone levels will not be there for much longer. This is why guys that know what they are talking about always mention that if you are making the decision to pin, its a life decision.

Any doc that wants to put you on HCG + an aromatase inhibitor for hormone replacement you need to walk back out of the office.
Yeah...I realize that cycles aren't extremely productive in terms of maintaining muscle gains. I just think it may be important to give your body a break at times (maybe not as often though) to prevent issues like elevated hematocrit/hemoglobin, polycythemia, heart/prostate issues, etc. But I'm no expert on the HPTA.

My prescribed dose was 200mg/week. I would inject 100 mg twice weekly.
At times I dropped the dose to 150 or 100/wk. My total T was usually between 900 and 1100. Occasionally dipped over.

What are your thoughts on HCG? I don't use HCG very often when on TRT but I know some use it throughout the duration. The doc put me on a "PCT" protocol of HCG and Clomid about a month ago (two weeks after my last injection). I'm not sure if this is a great protocol. I just went along with their recommendation because the last time I came off I felt horrible for a few months.

It seems that I've had some adverse physical effects since I started taking these, but it's hard to determine if they're caused by the drugs or depleting testosterone levels and imbalances in my system (or both). It's still not clear to me exactly how Clomid affects estrogen or if it's healthy to use.

I definitely agree that aromatase inhibitors should be avoided as much as possible and maybe completely. I never took them on a regular basis. I would take a small dose occasionally (once a week or so at most). At times I crashed E2 and it wasn't fun at all and really seemed to throw my system out of wack.

If I were to go back on, do you think 150ish/week divided into two doses + DIM would be a good protocol?
[Reply]
Fish 10:44 PM 10-17-2020
Originally Posted by 2112:
Ok Iíll play. Sexual exhaustion (draining your balls every day non stop) does. And it also lowers testosterone and will fuck with the rhythm of your heart.
Sexual exhaustion, sure. But sexual exhaustion is the same whether you're masturbating or humping your lady. That's different than saying masturbation causes ED. Frequency is definitely an issue. But it doesn't matter who it's with.
[Reply]
Fish 10:48 PM 10-17-2020
Originally Posted by htismaqe:
Frequent use of porn could lead to performance issues. The dude never said he had ED, he said he "went soft" inside a chick.

It's true that masturbation has no effect on ED. But frequent use of pornography absolutely changes a person's predilections and can lead to a lack of satisfaction.
But that is what ED is though. Inability to maintain an erection during sex.

I would just clarify that frequent use of pornography is in no way different than frequent normal sex in regards to a person's predilections or lack of satisfaction.
[Reply]
htismaqe 10:52 PM 10-17-2020
Originally Posted by Fish:
I would just clarify that frequent use of pornography is in no way different than frequent normal sex in regards to a person's predilections or lack of satisfaction.
That's simply not accurate. There's growing scientific evidence out there to suggest that frequent viewing of pornography by young men permanently affects their ability to enjoy "normal" sex.
[Reply]
BWillie 10:59 PM 10-17-2020
Originally Posted by htismaqe:
Frequent use of porn could lead to performance issues. The dude never said he had ED, he said he "went soft" inside a chick.

It's true that masturbation has no effect on ED. But frequent use of pornography absolutely changes a person's predilections and can lead to a lack of satisfaction.
You only get so many boners. Its science.
[Reply]
Fish 11:18 PM 10-17-2020
Originally Posted by htismaqe:
That's simply not accurate. There's growing scientific evidence out there to suggest that frequent viewing of pornography by young men permanently affects their ability to enjoy "normal" sex.
OK, after a bit of looking, it appears you are correct. My apologies.

This is the best meta-analysis on the subject done to date. And it does indeed show that. Surprisingly it only seems to be evident for males. Apologies for my arrogance...

Originally Posted by :
Consuming pornography was associated with lower interpersonal satisfaction in results from published and unpublished studies, regardless of the year the study was circulated, and regardless of the method. Sex was a significant moderator in a mixed-effects model subgroup analysis, however, and only the negative correlation for males was significant.

https://www.researchgate.net/publica...d_Satisfaction

[Reply]
notorious 05:52 AM 10-18-2020
Originally Posted by BWillie:
You only get so many boners. Its science.
Mahomes is going to cause a lot of ED when he retires.
[Reply]
penguinz 07:51 AM 10-18-2020
Originally Posted by BWillie:
You only get so many boners. Its science.
https://youtu.be/u5RjG4-K9Gc
[Reply]
Lilmrp117 08:06 AM 10-18-2020
Originally Posted by RaidersOftheCellar:
When you say DIM only helped a little, are you talking about symptoms or blood levels? I tried it a few years ago and dropped it because it didnít seem to have much of an effect on the numbers. But I think the theory is that it causes estrogen to metabolize into the ďgoodĒ form that you want and helps to keep T and E in the proper ratio. I donít think itís supposed to have a big effect on serum E2 levels.

Iím curious about the cream. Iíve only done injections. Was it you who said that the cream doesnít shut down your natural production of T and other hormones? Iíll be pretty ticked off if thatís true.
I'm hoping that applying a small amount of cream (12.5mg) to the scrotum will not entirely shit down natural production due to it absorbing and leaving the body so quickly. I still need to see if this will work thought. I need to get more blood work soon but I definitely feel better so far.

The Natesto nasal spray is confirmed to not shut down natural production so that's an option too but requires 3 nasal sprays a day bc it is is so quick acting.

Also, for those badmouthing HCG, sometimes that may be the only way to maintain fertility if you still care about that. When I did injections with no hcg, it killed all sperm which was confirmed with semen analysis. After hcg, I was able to continue on T and get my sperm back and have another child, so hcg can be a blessing and also good in keeping your balls from shrinking.
[Reply]
Aspengc8 08:54 AM 10-18-2020
Originally Posted by RaidersOftheCellar:
Yeah...I realize that cycles aren't extremely productive in terms of maintaining muscle gains. I just think it may be important to give your body a break at times (maybe not as often though) to prevent issues like elevated hematocrit/hemoglobin, polycythemia, heart/prostate issues, etc. But I'm no expert on the HPTA.

My prescribed dose was 200mg/week. I would inject 100 mg twice weekly.
At times I dropped the dose to 150 or 100/wk. My total T was usually between 900 and 1100. Occasionally dipped over.

What are your thoughts on HCG? I don't use HCG very often when on TRT but I know some use it throughout the duration. The doc put me on a "PCT" protocol of HCG and Clomid about a month ago (two weeks after my last injection). I'm not sure if this is a great protocol. I just went along with their recommendation because the last time I came off I felt horrible for a few months.

It seems that I've had some adverse physical effects since I started taking these, but it's hard to determine if they're caused by the drugs or depleting testosterone levels and imbalances in my system (or both). It's still not clear to me exactly how Clomid affects estrogen or if it's healthy to use.

I definitely agree that aromatase inhibitors should be avoided as much as possible and maybe completely. I never took them on a regular basis. I would take a small dose occasionally (once a week or so at most). At times I crashed E2 and it wasn't fun at all and really seemed to throw my system out of wack.

If I were to go back on, do you think 150ish/week divided into two doses + DIM would be a good protocol?
Your weekly dosage is exactly how I run my cruises, and my numbers seem to be around yours (I'm constantly between 1000-1200). You shouldn't need HCG or clomid. Clomid prevents estrogen from interacting with the pituitary gland, which is responsible for releasing FSH (message to your little boys to keep producing). HCG does the same thing directly, messages your boys to keep working. So your basically adding test exogenously and sending TWO messages to your boys to keep working.

If you dont mind, can you post your bloods (if you have access to them)? I'm interested to see what your estradiol, total & free test, hematocrit is at that has your doctor putting on clomid. Usually dont see guys on that stuff unless that are on test PLUS other heavy androgens that aromatise. Also how are your liver enzymes ALT, AST and Bilirubin?

Everyone is different though. Shoot me a PM if you want to compare bloods, I have mine for every 3 months over the last 10 years blasting and cruising.
[Reply]
RaidersOftheCellar 10:22 AM 10-18-2020
Originally Posted by Aspengc8:
Your weekly dosage is exactly how I run my cruises, and my numbers seem to be around yours (I'm constantly between 1000-1200). You shouldn't need HCG or clomid. Clomid prevents estrogen from interacting with the pituitary gland, which is responsible for releasing FSH (message to your little boys to keep producing). HCG does the same thing directly, messages your boys to keep working. So your basically adding test exogenously and sending TWO messages to your boys to keep working.

If you dont mind, can you post your bloods (if you have access to them)? I'm interested to see what your estradiol, total & free test, hematocrit is at that has your doctor putting on clomid. Usually dont see guys on that stuff unless that are on test PLUS other heavy androgens that aromatise. Also how are your liver enzymes ALT, AST and Bilirubin?

Everyone is different though. Shoot me a PM if you want to compare bloods, I have mine for every 3 months over the last 10 years blasting and cruising.
My last tests were in July. The liver enzymes were fine. E2 was 51, Total T 964, Free T 24.5. Hemoglobin and hematocrit were both over the top end of the normal range.

Not sure if I was clear, but Iím only taking Clomid and HCG for post cycle therapy to kickstart my natural production. They donít seem to have helped a lot, but I havenít done any labs. I just stopped HCG after a month and Iím probably going to drop Clomid soon.

From what Iíve read about Clomid, it seems that it prevents estrogen from binding to the receptors. Doesnít seem like a good thing to me, but itís supposedly pretty effective at keeping your T levels from bottoming out.
[Reply]
htismaqe 10:51 AM 10-18-2020
Originally Posted by Fish:
OK, after a bit of looking, it appears you are correct. My apologies.

This is the best meta-analysis on the subject done to date. And it does indeed show that. Surprisingly it only seems to be evident for males. Apologies for my arrogance...
No worries, man. The research is really just starting unfortunately. I worked with teenagers for 4 years and have two of them myself (both girls). We're really just now starting to understand the impact of having fingertip access to massive amounts of not only porn but porn of every possible niche fetish known (and unknown) to man.
[Reply]
lewdog 11:28 AM 10-18-2020
Interesting how many on CP are on something. Honestly didn't expect this many.
[Reply]
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