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Saccopoo Memorial Draft Forum>Easter Mock 4/4/21
kccrow 11:37 AM 04-04-2021
1-16 | LT Christian Darrisaw, Virginia Tech (6'5" 322)
Kansas City trades 1-31, 4-144, 2022-1st to Arizona for 1-16.
As painful as it is, I see no way around the fact that KC needs to move up significantly in this draft to secure a left tackle that fits Andy Reid's scheme. The bulk of this class isn't a fit from length to athleticism to positional translation. I see Sewell (Bengals) and Slater (Chargers) coming off the board first before Darrisaw. I think the Vikings opt for a guard like Vera-Tucker and move Ezra Cleveland out to his natural position. KC could trade up using other picks, more likely a 2nd and 3rd in some combination, but I think for making the team better now, you look at trading a 1st next year instead. Darrisaw has prototypical size, height, arm length, and overall athleticism. While he needs some work on his pass-blocking technique, he was much improved in 2020 in that regard. Veach goes and gets what he needs, simple as that.

2-63 | WR Dyami Brown, North Carolina (6'1" 189)
Brown is a phenomenal deep ball receiver with plenty of route running acumen underneath to set up and ditch defenders. He's a near prototype for what you'd look for as an X in this offense with his ability to make defenders pay for the single coverages he should face regularly.

3-94 | DE Payton Turner, Houston (6'5" 270)
Turner is a solid LDE prospect in that he offers great get-off at the snap, good size, anchor, and decent bend on the edge with the strength to handle more powerful RTs. He has the ability to line up at multiple spots on the defensive line depending on the set (experience at DT), which Spags often does in racecar sets on 3rd and long. Turner's versatility should be a huge draw for the Chiefs.

4-136 | LB Derrick Barnes, Purdue (6'0" 238)
Barnes is a chess piece to deploy for Spagnuolo. He comes in as a twitched-up, highly energetic player with experience at the MIKE and as an EDGE. He has great range, speed, and the strength to hold up to and break down lineman. He could develop into an eventual MLB at the NFL level similar to Joe Schobert, and he comes in as a similar player. He probably cuts his teeth as a SAM prospect with a lot of utility work early on while he better learns playing as an off-ball linebacker.

5-175 | SS Joshua Bledsoe, Missouri (5'11" 201)
Bledsoe is a versatile safety that shows the ability to bump down in coverage on TEs and RBs while also being able to stick with WRs in man coverage. He's energetic and a solid tackler. While solid, he can sometimes overplay the run or his man and be left out of position.

5-181 | OL Royce Newman, Ole Miss (6'5" 310)
Newman is an athletic lineman with the ability to play every spot on the offensive line. He has solid pass pro skills with the ability to lock on and stay on his block and plus mirroring. He also has the ability to get out into space and stick blocks at the second level. The plus is, he's big, nasty, and sports a mullet and goatee. All he needs now is a Camaro and some BBQ and he'll fit right in.

6-207 | RB Rakeem Boyd, Arkansas (5'11" 213)
Boyd is a physical runner and solid receiver out of the backfield with some juice that should go much higher if all were based on talent alone. His academic issues are definitely going to cause him to slide as teams may be less inclined to think he can pick up the playbook. There isn't a lot of pressure here in KC for him to start and can take some time developing while contributing in a short-yardage role early.


Roster
QB: P. Mahomes, C. Henne
RB: C. Edwards-Helaire, Dar. Williams, R. Boyd

WR: T. Hill, D. Robinson, D. Brown, M. Hardman, B. Pringle, A. Calloway
TE: T. Kelce, N. Keizer, B. Bell

LT: C. Darrisaw, M. Rankin, P. Tega Wanogho
LG: J. Thuney, N. Allegretti
OC: A. Blythe, R. Newman
RG: L. Duvernay-Tardif, K. Long, Y. Durant
RT: M. Remmers, L. Niang

DE: F. Clark, M. Danna
DT: C. Jones, T. Wharton
DT: D. Nnadi, J. Reed, K. Saunders
DE: T. Charlton, P. Turner

SLB: W. Gay, D. Harris
ILB: A. Hitchens, D. Barnes, E. Smith
WLB: B. Niemann, D. O'Daniel

CB: C. Ward, L. Sneed, R. Fenton, T. Keyes, D. Baker
S: T. Mathieu, J. Thornhill, D. Sorensen, J. Bledsoe, A. Watts

K: Butker
P: Townsend
LS: Winchester
[Reply]
bowener 07:31 AM 04-05-2021
Originally Posted by TambaBerry:
Honestly I trust Veach. Doing the online mock drafts I don't like the oline that fall to 31 so if he feels like there is a guy ready to start day 1 then use whatever he needs to and go get him.
That's how I feel and I keep taking Zaven Collins at 31 bc I think that fucker is going to be great. I'm probably wrong.
[Reply]
Chris Meck 08:49 AM 04-05-2021
Originally Posted by kccrow:
BTW guys... My preference in the draft was Joe Tryon. Still is. I think that kid is going to be a player. That said, I can't get past LT. It's far too great a need. You simply cannot go into 2021 with a 4th round caliber player and nobody else. And frankly, that's what most are clamoring for of late.
who's clamoring for that?

I don't think I've seen anyone 'clamor' for anything of the sort.
[Reply]
kccrow 08:59 AM 04-05-2021
Originally Posted by Chris Meck:
who's clamoring for that?

I don't think I've seen anyone 'clamor' for anything of the sort.
Day 3 tackles? They haven't? Hmmm.

Perhaps "clamor" is the wrong word, but many have suggested it and been on board with it.

Why on Earth would anyone be happy if KC went into the draft and didn't take a tackle until day 3 OR reached for a day 3 player on day 2 to fill the position?

Until Veach signs a FA, that's the very definition of day 3 tackle and little else.
[Reply]
Chris Meck 09:24 AM 04-05-2021
Originally Posted by kccrow:
Day 3 tackles? They haven't? Hmmm.

Perhaps "clamor" is the wrong word, but many have suggested it and been on board with it.

Why on Earth would anyone be happy if KC went into the draft and didn't take a tackle until day 3 OR reached for a day 3 player on day 2 to fill the position?

Until Veach signs a FA, that's the very definition of day 3 tackle and little else.
First of all, just because you think Forsythe is a day 3 tackle doesn't mean the NFL does. It's totally fine that you feel like you're doing your research, but you're not an NFL scout.

Second, anyone advocating for a LT that's not likely to be a day one starter is also advocating that we sign a short term veteran free agent.

Nobody wants to just draft a guy in the third and throw him in there.
[Reply]
kccrow 11:21 AM 04-05-2021
Originally Posted by Chris Meck:
First of all, just because you think Forsythe is a day 3 tackle doesn't mean the NFL does. It's totally fine that you feel like you're doing your research, but you're not an NFL scout.

Second, anyone advocating for a LT that's not likely to be a day one starter is also advocating that we sign a short term veteran free agent.

Nobody wants to just draft a guy in the third and throw him in there.
Stone Forsythe has been consistently ranked as a late day 3/UDFA prospect for most of the offseason. His scouting reports consistently list his obvious shitty lateral agility and horrendous feet as issues. If they are obvious to me, and obvious to every draft guy on the planet, they are obvious to NFL scouts. I feel like I've went to bat for him in a way by calling him a 4th round pick because most don't.

For those advocating a short-term FA, I'll list your options.

Russell Okung - He hasn't made it through 16 games since 2016 and hasn't played in more than 7 in each of the last two seasons. If you sign him, you need a guy that can start by the middle of the season.

Alejandro Villanueva - Not known for his pass blocking acumen nor his athleticism, is solid enough but not a guy you really want in this offense. Passable 1-year option if the chips are down.

Jason Peters - 39 years old and was atrocious last season. He's done physically. Maybe you can ride with him in a similar manner to Okung but it doesn't look real promising.

Cameron Fleming - Best suited as a RT, not really a passable option at LT for much longer than a few games.

Marshall Newhouse - Career journeyman swing tackle. If you're going the route of Okung or Peters, Newhouse would likely net you the same results for a lot less money. Another situation of needing a starter sooner than later, and this year.

Jason Spriggs - Failed 2nd round pick that just never put it together. Not even a realistic option to be a starter.

Jared Veldheer - Retires every other year... but seriously not the most redeeming option. Hasn't played a full season since 2015. He can hold the fort at LT short-term much like Newhouse, Peters, and Okung and would be cheap but the chances of him not getting injured seem slim to none at this point in his career. Again, need a starter for some point in 2021.

Bobby Massie, Dennis Kelly, Ricky Wagner are career RTs.

The other options kicked around, and who even knows if they are realistic, are trading for Orlando Brown Jr who doesn't seem to fit the profile or trade for Andre Dillard whom the Eagles haven't made known they are willing to part ways with (only their fans).

So that's kind of it. Not much out there to hang your hat on outside of some guys that might get you through half a season while your rookie gets ready and none of them are overly enticing options.

If you're going to hang your hat on a mid-round pick, one would hope for a slightly better option than what I see above.


As painful of reality as it may be, Veach is kind of fucked. He could turn some pile of shit into roses by sheer luck, and I'm not saying he won't, but when you look at all of this that's exactly what it would be - luck. He could get lucky some combination of veteran shit above and a mid-round pick works. He could get lucky a LT inexplicably falls in the draft to #31 without a trade up. He could get lucky some veteran shit above gets him to a point where Fisher is healthy and he re-signs here and rides it out to the end. He could get lucky that Niang will work as a LT even though he never played it in college. Historical statistics indicate it's unlikely.
[Reply]
Chris Meck 11:58 AM 04-05-2021
Originally Posted by kccrow:
Stone Forsythe has been consistently ranked as a late day 3/UDFA prospect for most of the offseason. His scouting reports consistently list his obvious shitty lateral agility and horrendous feet as issues. If they are obvious to me, and obvious to every draft guy on the planet, they are obvious to NFL scouts. I feel like I've went to bat for him in a way by calling him a 4th round pick because most don't.

For those advocating a short-term FA, I'll list your options.

Russell Okung - He hasn't made it through 16 games since 2016 and hasn't played in more than 7 in each of the last two seasons. If you sign him, you need a guy that can start by the middle of the season.

Alejandro Villanueva - Not known for his pass blocking acumen nor his athleticism, is solid enough but not a guy you really want in this offense. Passable 1-year option if the chips are down.

Jason Peters - 39 years old and was atrocious last season. He's done physically. Maybe you can ride with him in a similar manner to Okung but it doesn't look real promising.

Cameron Fleming - Best suited as a RT, not really a passable option at LT for much longer than a few games.

Marshall Newhouse - Career journeyman swing tackle. If you're going the route of Okung or Peters, Newhouse would likely net you the same results for a lot less money. Another situation of needing a starter sooner than later, and this year.

Jason Spriggs - Failed 2nd round pick that just never put it together. Not even a realistic option to be a starter.

Jared Veldheer - Retires every other year... but seriously not the most redeeming option. Hasn't played a full season since 2015. He can hold the fort at LT short-term much like Newhouse, Peters, and Okung and would be cheap but the chances of him not getting injured seem slim to none at this point in his career. Again, need a starter for some point in 2021.

Bobby Massie, Dennis Kelly, Ricky Wagner are career RTs.

The other options kicked around, and who even knows if they are realistic, are trading for Orlando Brown Jr who doesn't seem to fit the profile or trade for Andre Dillard whom the Eagles haven't made known they are willing to part ways with (only their fans).

So that's kind of it. Not much out there to hang your hat on outside of some guys that might get you through half a season while your rookie gets ready and none of them are overly enticing options.

If you're going to hang your hat on a mid-round pick, one would hope for a slightly better option than what I see above.


As painful of reality as it may be, Veach is kind of ****ed. He could turn some pile of shit into roses by sheer luck, and I'm not saying he won't, but when you look at all of this that's exactly what it would be - luck. He could get lucky some combination of veteran shit above and a mid-round pick works. He could get lucky a LT inexplicably falls in the draft to #31 without a trade up. He could get lucky some veteran shit above gets him to a point where Fisher is healthy and he re-signs here and rides it out to the end. He could get lucky that Niang will work as a LT even though he never played it in college. Historical statistics indicate it's unlikely.

I don't agree with your assessment of any of that. Whatosever. Furthermore, there are just as many scouting reports that say otherwise regarding Forsythe, and in this year in particular, I would not expect any kind of consensus at all on anyone.

I think you're very extreme in your view of the situation and players available and that's just as unrealistic as taking a day 3 LT and playing him on day 1 expecting Pro Bowl level play.

I appreciate the effort you put into mocks, but you're not an NFL scout, and I've seen scouting reports that say Forsythe is an excellent pass blocker that was left on an island almost exclusively and handled the best of the SEC pass rushers with no problem.

That does not scream day 3 project pick to me.

So you'll just have to pardon me if I question your ability to project talent.
[Reply]
kccrow 12:13 PM 04-05-2021
Originally Posted by Chris Meck:
I don't agree with your assessment of any of that. Whatosever. Furthermore, there are just as many scouting reports that say otherwise regarding Forsythe, and in this year in particular, I would not expect any kind of consensus at all on anyone.

I think you're very extreme in your view of the situation and players available and that's just as unrealistic as taking a day 3 LT and playing him on day 1 expecting Pro Bowl level play.

I appreciate the effort you put into mocks, but you're not an NFL scout, and I've seen scouting reports that say Forsythe is an excellent pass blocker that was left on an island almost exclusively and handled the best of the SEC pass rushers with no problem.

That does not scream day 3 project pick to me.

So you'll just have to pardon me if I question your ability to project talent.
I think you need to watch him play and quit relying on scouting reports alone, which vary wildly on him. I watched every game I could find on him and saw the same flaws show up in each. If I saw in him what I see in some other prospects, I wouldn't be calling him a developmental player.

And if you don't like my ability to look at/project talent, then don't read it. I really give zero shits. I think I've proven enough over the past 20 years of doing it that I do ok. I really don't need your stamp of approval.
[Reply]
Chris Meck 12:58 PM 04-05-2021
Originally Posted by kccrow:
I think you need to watch him play and quit relying on scouting reports alone, which vary wildly on him. I watched every game I could find on him and saw the same flaws show up in each. If I saw in him what I see in some other prospects, I wouldn't be calling him a developmental player.

And if you don't like my ability to look at/project talent, then don't read it. I really give zero shits. I think I've proven enough over the past 20 years of doing it that I do ok. I really don't need your stamp of approval.
I just disagree with your assessment. No need to get all butt-hurt about it. I'm not going to sit and watch ten UF games to watch one guy we probably won't draft anyway, but I have watched some video on him, some positive, some negative. You can find the same on literally any player you seek.
[Reply]
RunKC 01:43 PM 04-05-2021
Man I really like Payton Turner. I doubt hell be there at 94 so Id love to get him at 63
[Reply]
O.city 01:50 PM 04-05-2021
The issue I have with the "we can't trade up we have other holes" is that while true, LT is such a hole and is such an important spot, you can't really "get by" there.

You can "get by" at OLB in this defense or 2nd Cb etc.

Lt I just don't think you can.
[Reply]
htismaqe 01:54 PM 04-05-2021
Originally Posted by O.city:
The issue I have with the "we can't trade up we have other holes" is that while true, LT is such a hole and is such an important spot, you can't really "get by" there.

You can "get by" at OLB in this defense or 2nd Cb etc.

Lt I just don't think you can.
You're assuming that the guy we can get at 31 is a significant drop off from somebody we'd trade up for.

That's really not the case in this draft, save for a couple of unlikely scenarios like the one Crow has identified here.
[Reply]
O.city 02:17 PM 04-05-2021
Originally Posted by htismaqe:
You're assuming that the guy we can get at 31 is a significant drop off from somebody we'd trade up for.

That's really not the case in this draft, save for a couple of unlikely scenarios like the one Crow has identified here.
I think, the more I've read, trading up for Darrisaw would be the most ideal move from a player youre getting standpoint.

Now whether they can get up that high or what they'll have to give up is a different thing all together.

For me, he's the consensus #2 LT and if not for Sewell (who I'd love to have) woudl be a normal #1 type LT prospect.
[Reply]
htismaqe 02:48 PM 04-05-2021
Originally Posted by O.city:
I think, the more I've read, trading up for Darrisaw would be the most ideal move from a player youre getting standpoint.

Now whether they can get up that high or what they'll have to give up is a different thing all together.

For me, he's the consensus #2 LT and if not for Sewell (who I'd love to have) woudl be a normal #1 type LT prospect.
I absolutely agree here.

Darrisaw would be my #1 pick. And if he falls far enough, I'd jump all over it.

I just don't see him getting past the Chargers and trading up to #12 is going to cost a fortune.
[Reply]
Stryker 04:47 PM 04-05-2021
Originally Posted by kccrow:
That's kind of where I'm at and agree with Tamba as well.

LT is not just a position you can be like "alright let's just throw a guy out there." The LT position to me, and I'd wager most coaches and GMs around the NFL, is the single most important position on the team after QB. That's why teams spend top-20 picks to get them. The only time teams don't spend that kind of capital to get one is when there is an incumbent there and they expect to have a season or two to take a flyer on a later guy that can be developed (a la guys like Stone Forsythe).

KC isn't in a position to just hope a guy falls in the draft, especially when there are only a few legit LT prospects in it. Everyone looks at the sheer quantity of tackles but we've debated and looked at most all of them and there seems to be an overwhelming consensus that they are primarily RTs or guards in the NFL. Most just don't have the athleticism, quick feet, and so on to hold up on the left side.

This brings me to the one caveat here on a metric that often dictates a drive to the IOL from tackle: arm length. Most teams like their LTs to have at least 34" arms and RTs to have at least 33" arms. Now, time has proven there are exceptions. Joe Thomas had 32-1/2" arms. Jake Long came in with 32-7/8" arms. Jason Peters with 33-1/4" arms. Jordan Gross at 33-1/4"s. The list goes on. Arm length is not the end-all-be-all for a LT, but he better be technically sound and have outstanding feet and lateral athleticism. This is why I think Rashawn Slater will not only be a LT but an All-Pro caliber LT. Sam Cosmi is likely a top-25 selection because he has athleticism to play LT and 33" arms. That said, it usually matters.

What I can't get past is not arm length, it's marginal athleticism and bad food quickness, especially in conjunction with shorter arms. Will a guy like Liam Eichenberg play LT in the NFL? Probably not, sporting marginal athleticism to go with sub-33" arms, but he'll more than likely be a really good RT or be moved inside where he'll have to quicken his sets. I think the same about Teven Jenkins, who doesn't have elite foot quickness and lateral agility to go along with 33-1/2" arms. I think he remains an NFL RT. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that, or at least the expectation that these guys have a low probably of being LTs in the NFL. They can be exceptional RTs and there is a premium on them as well. Just because they may be 1st round caliber does not mean they are a LT. Marginal athleticism and poor feet are the reasons I don't see a guy like Stone Forsythe being a good fit at LT.

I think if there were a guy I'd take a shot on in the mid rounds, it's Spencer Brown out of Northern Iowa. He reminds me quite a bit of Nate Solder. He's extra tall, which can be a terrible thing, but he also has extremely good feet and quickness. If he can ensure he keeps his knees bent and doesn't lunge, he has everything you want to make that conversion from RT to LT. Those types though, are really rare.

I fully understand the people that are like "we don't need to move up" even if I don't portray it. That's coming from the understanding that Veach still goes out and signs a guy like Okung to a 1-year deal. In fact, Okung is really the only guy left out there to do it. If Veach does that, it opens the door up to snag a guy later and hope he develops. If not, I don't see much value at LT outside of Sewell, Slater, Darrisaw, Cosmi, and Radunz, and I really don't think Radunz is a day 1 starter. I question if Cosmi is to some extent.
I'm in - I would do it without regret. All of your points are valid and I think you did a great job! :-)
[Reply]
Couch-Potato 08:17 AM 04-06-2021
Could we get Sewell?
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