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Saccopoo Memorial Draft Forum>Mock 11/23/19
kccrow 01:05 AM 11-23-2019
More pretend fun...

Moves
Chiefs trade WR Sammy Watkins to Arizona for a 2020 4th round pick and conditional 4th round pick in 2021. If Emmanuel Sanders and a 5th can get a 3rd and 4th round return, I think a younger Watkins has decent value. The Cards will need a receiver and Watkins' cap space is needed in KC.

Chiefs franchise, then trade DT Chris Jones to Miami for their 2nd round pick in 2020, their 3rd round pick in 2021 and CB Cordrea Tankersley. I don't think KC will get as much for Jones as they probably deserve so it'll be a bit of give and take. The Chiefs gave me some confidence in trading Jones when he was out. I think they can pry away Tankersley in a trade with Miami given he was benched before tearing his ACL last year and now is finally coming back. He showed promise as a rookie and Veach likes reclamation projects.

Chiefs cut OT Cam Erving, SS Daniel Sorensen, P Dustin Colquitt

Chiefs sign the following free agents:
DT A'Shawn Robinson (DET) to a 5-year, $57.5 million deal (mirrors Star Lotuleilei's but time adjusted) with $21.0 million guaranteed and a $15 million signing bonus. Estimated 2020 salary is $7.75 million. Robinson doesn't have the pass rush prowess of Jones, but he's a better run defender and can still get some pressure. The plus is Robinson should be much cheaper than Jones and at the same time shore up the leaky run defense.

OL Graham Glasgow (DET) to a 4-year, $28.0 million deal (similar to Billy Turner and Zach Fulton) with $9.0 million signing bonus and approximate year 1 salary of $6.0 million. Glasgow isn't an All-Pro caliber player but he's rock-solid everywhere he lines up (all 3 interior spots).

DB Jimmy Ward (SF) to a 1-year, $2.0 million deal with $1.0 million guaranteed. Ward is a bit of a Swiss Army knife but his problem is getting knicked up. He's a solid nickel when healthy and that usually means limiting his snaps. He should come at a discount.

SS Darian Thompson (DAL) to a 1-year, $1.5 million deal with $500k guarannteed. Thompson is a solid reserve safety that does a good job coming down in run support.

Chiefs re-sign/extend the following players:
QB Patrick Mahomes - Exercise 5th-year option, then sign him to a 4-year extension for $152 million with $67 million guaranteed and a $27.5 million signing bonus and $33.0 million 2021 option bonus. Estimated 2020 salary is $8.76 million (+3.5 million). (Underlined for emphasis for Direkshun. :-))

CB Bashaud Breeland - Re-sign to 3-year $30.0 million deal (similar to Logan Ryan and Prince Amukamara) with $11.5 million guaranteed and a $4.5 million signing bonus and a $3.0 million roster bonus that guarantees the 5th day of the 2021 league year. Estimated 2020 salary is $8.50 million.

DE Emmanuel Ogbah - Re-sign to a 3-year $18.0 million deal (mirrors Alex Okafor's deal) with a $6.0 million bonus.

WR Demarcus Robinson - Re-sign to a 2-year $5.0 million deal (similar to Chris Conley deal) with a $1.0 million bonus and estimated 1st year of $2.3 million

Chiefs ERFA tender TE Deon Yelder, LG Andrew Wylie, WR Marcus Kemp
Chiefs sign to minimum deals QB Matt Moore, S Jordan Lucas, DT Mike Pennel

Deals, after the rollover, leave Chiefs at approximately $6.5 million in cap space.

Draft

1. CB Bryce Hall, Virginia (6'1" 200)
The Chiefs have lacked a blue-chip corner since they shipped off Marcus Peters (not such a bad decision in retrospect) and should at least find a guy that strikes some fear into a opponents. Hall is a big, fluid corner with outstanding awareness and ball skills as well as solid tackling ability, but lacks the elite top-end speed to be a top-10 pick.

2 (f/MIA). RB J.K. Dobbins, Ohio State (5'10" 215)
The Chiefs should very well take note from the Packers on how to help your superstar QB and that's by showing a re-committment to running the football. Dobbins is a do-it-all back with the power to plow through the interior, the speed to take it outside, breakaway ability, amazing balance, and is a good receiver and pass blocker to boot. Dobbins is as good of an all-around back as you'll find in this draft.

2 (f/SF). DE Kenny Willekes, Michigan State (6'4" 260)
The Chiefs pass rush has been a bit lackluster with Frank Clark underperforming and the injury to Emmanuel Ogbah. Frank Okafor has been a disappointment and Kpass is a spot contributor, so the Chiefs just need more juice. Willekes is a bit undersized (with room to fill out), but he makes up for it with great quickness, play recognition, and hand usage. He reminds me alot of Yannick Ngakoue, who has been productive in Jacksonville's scheme and has developed alot more upper body strength since coming into the league.

3. LB Zack Baun, Wisconsin (6'3" 240)
The Chiefs lack depth and starting ability at linebacker so they need to do something to address it moving forward. Baun reminds me a bunch of Joe Schobert in that he doesn't quite have the size nor power to play the edge in the NFL but he has outstanding lateral agility, a good backpedal, plays good fundamental football and is extremely adept in zone coverage. Once again I find myself touting a tweener Wisconsin linebacker to convert.

4. (f/ARZ). TE Harrison Bryant, Florida Atlantic (6'6" 240)
The Chiefs' stable of tight ends behind Kelce is problematic with Blake Bell and Deon Yelder only each having 3 catches to this point in the season (Yikes!). While I really like Brycen Hopkins, there is some chatter out there about him being a potential 1st rounder or at least a high 2nd rounder. I don't know that the Chiefs can afford to invest that heavily in a guy to sit behind Kelce. I like Bryant quite a bit but he's thin. He runs well, he finds soft spots in zones, and he gives great effort as a blocker most of the time. He just needs to add about 25 pounds to his frame.

4. WR Kalija Lipscomb, Vanderbilt (6'1" 200)
The Chiefs probably need to trade Watkins and bringing back Robinson could be a matter of price (although I have him coming back cheap). Lipscomb has good speed and quickness, runs good routes to gain separation, has solid size and has reliable hands but needs to eliminate the stutter step at the start of his route. That said, Lipscomb has been productive with a terrible QB. The Chiefs continue rebuilding at receiver, piggy-backing off of drafting Hardman last year.

5. OL Matt Peart, UConn (6'5" 300)
The Chiefs could use a swing tackle and Peart looks the part with his athleticism. He also has the ability to swing inside to guard where he has experience, but may need some strength development.

QB: Mahomes, Moore, Shurmur
RB: Dobbins, Williams, Williams, Thompson
FB: Lovett
WR: Hill, Hardman, Robinson, Pringle, Lipscomb, Thompson
TE: Kelce, Bryant, Yelder
OL: Fisher, Rankins, Glasgow, Duvernay-Tardif, Schwartz, Reiter, Wylie, Allegretti, Peart
DE: Clark, Okafor, Ogbah, Kpassagnon, Willekes
DT: Robinson, Nnadi, Saunders, Pennel, Speaks
LB: Wilson, Hitchens, Baun, Niemann, O'Daniel
CB: Breeland, Hall, Ward, Tankersley, Ward, Fenton
S: Mathieu, Thornhill, Thompson, Watts, Lucas
ST: Butker, Some UDFA Punter, Winchester
[Reply]
Buehler445 01:16 AM 11-23-2019
I like it.

I don’t know much about any of those players. But in principle I like Jones for players approach.
[Reply]
BryanBusby 02:38 PM 11-23-2019
No thanks
[Reply]
TambaBerry 03:33 PM 11-23-2019
If you're not getting a first for Jones then don't even think about trading him.
[Reply]
OKchiefs 03:47 PM 11-23-2019
If that's all you're doing to address linebacker then nope
[Reply]
kccrow 04:47 PM 11-23-2019
Originally Posted by TambaBerry:
If you're not getting a first for Jones then don't even think about trading him.
Chiefs aren't keeping him in my opinion. Veach didn't draft DTs in back-to-back drafts on day 2 to keep Chris Jones. I also doubt they can get a 1st. If they do get a 1st, I think it's a 1st and that's it.

Leonard Williams fetched a 3rd and conditional 5th.
Danny Shelton and a 5th fetched a 3rd

The last time a DT got traded for a 1st was Richard Seymour in 2011 and the Pats got just a 1st, #17 overall.

I think you look at that as an absolute maximum value. I think he gets you more than Williams just got the Jets but he's probably not getting you a 1st.
[Reply]
kccrow 04:52 PM 11-23-2019
Originally Posted by BryanBusby:
No thanks
Superb commentary! Thanks for the generous amount of insight and input.
[Reply]
kccrow 05:14 PM 11-23-2019
Originally Posted by OKchiefs:
If that's all you're doing to address linebacker then nope
I've tried to think about this too because I hate our linebackers. My question is, what are you going to do sans bringing in a vet that's no better than what's here?

It's likely Cleveland franchises Schobert and Carolina franchises Thompson because neither team really has any other free agents worth the tag and those are pretty much the only ones out there that are significant improvements. I'm sure the Packers go out of their way to hang onto Blake Martinez after it took them the better part of a decade to find a good MLB.

Maybe you can snag a guy like Jon Bostic on a reasonable deal, and that's fine. Outside of these 4, I see no free agent improvements.

I look at the draft and I see Simmons and Murray as potential 1st round guys. and then a lump of guys that are in that 2nd-4th range that are all pretty fair game and I happened to pick one guy I like. I like Weaver, Bachie, Brooks, Reece, and Fisher more than most. I think Simmons is gone early. Am I willing to forgoe a CB or some other positions for a guy like Murray? I'm not sure yet, but I don't think so.
[Reply]
RunKC 05:15 PM 11-23-2019
I don’t get spending big for a DT who can stop the run but not rush while having the same entity in Nandi and Saunders filling that role for multiple more years of a rookie contract?

I’m not in favor of it, but I think this franchise is gonna pay Chris Jones.
[Reply]
BryanBusby 05:41 PM 11-23-2019
Originally Posted by kccrow:
Superb commentary! Thanks for the generous amount of insight and input.
Too many things I disliked to break it all down at that moment, but no problem!

That would be a terrible return for a pass-rusher like Chris Jones in a pretty weak class for 3/5 tech's. Once Brown is off the board, it gets thin in a hurry. That should tell you pretty quick that trade sucks.

Once you factor in that just letting Jones walk out the door would get you a 3 in 2021 anyhow, that trade really sucks.

Spending the #33 pick on a RB with how good the mid range talent pool is in this class is bad.

Don't like the idea of Hall in the first round, and I especially don't understand retaining Breeland than following it up with drafting a CB in the first round. Is that you Matt Millen?

Robinson isn't leaving the Lions and if they pick up a new DT, I'd like someone with more of a pass-rushing presence.

DRob is going to fetch more than that in an open market.

Not really sure why they're targeting a DE either if Ogbah is being retained.

With how that offseason is shaping up, if they're targeting a LB it direly needs to be a Mike.

Not really understanding the OL pick up. I think they're going to be ok at Guard, if Rankin can pick up where he left off before the injury. Ldt isn't leaving yet. I'd like an upgrade at Center, but that's what I'd use a mid round pick on in the draft.


Is that enough for you? Kudos to all the work you put in on doing the OP, I just don't agree with the moves.
[Reply]
pugsnotdrugs19 05:48 PM 11-23-2019
Originally Posted by RunKC:
I dont get spending big for a DT who can stop the run but not rush while having the same entity in Nandi and Saunders filling that role for multiple more years of a rookie contract?

Im not in favor of it, but I think this franchise is gonna pay Chris Jones.
This

Id just bring Pennel back for cheaper. Paying big fatties is a dangerous proposition, they could get lazy quick.
[Reply]
kccrow 11:27 PM 11-23-2019
Originally Posted by BryanBusby:
Too many things I disliked to break it all down at that moment, but no problem! - Thanks this is more what I look for because at this moment it's just throwing shit at the wall and gauging what people feel are the biggest holes. Not that any of this will come to fruition, but usually the consensus speaks closely to what happens.

That would be a terrible return for a pass-rusher like Chris Jones in a pretty weak class for 3/5 tech's. Once Brown is off the board, it gets thin in a hurry. That should tell you pretty quick that trade sucks. - I agree it gets thin. I like Brown and Marvin Wilson, but after that it's pretty meh. I like some 4-3 run stuffers though. Maybe Chris Jones is worth more, but historically you don't see much movement of DTs and those that have been of late haven't generated big returns. Perhaps Jones being a good pass rusher will help.

Once you factor in that just letting Jones walk out the door would get you a 3 in 2021 anyhow, that trade really sucks. - I'm preparing myself for a letdown with Jones' return. If Veach has proven anything, he doesn't get much value in trades.

Spending the #33 pick on a RB with how good the mid range talent pool is in this class is bad. - Dobbins is the only back I'm considering ahead of round 5/UDFA and I don't think he lasts long into round 2, if he even gets there. I really like Ragas late. In my opinion it's either lay the chips down on the table and get a stud or just continue with the status quo.

Don't like the idea of Hall in the first round, and I especially don't understand retaining Breeland than following it up with drafting a CB in the first round. Is that you Matt Millen? - Fully disagree here. I'm letting Fuller and Claiborne walk and I'm looking more forward here than a year or two. Hall is probably the best DB in this draft at getting his hands on the football. I'm not especially enamored with Ward as a starter nor do I think Fenton is going to be an every-down corner. I'd rather have a good set of outside CBs in today's NFL than not. I think Breeland + Hall is a solid combination. If anything, I'd consider myself more overzealous in picking up Jimmy Ward in FA but he's more of a Honey Badger insurance policy than he is much else.

Robinson isn't leaving the Lions and if they pick up a new DT, I'd like someone with more of a pass-rushing presence. - I can agree here, although I'd rather the DTs be run-first oriented. This team plays better with Nnadi, Saunders, and Pennel as the primary interior defenders. I may shift this money to going back to hoping a guy like Schobert isn't franchised.

DRob is going to fetch more than that in an open market. - I doubt it. We thought Conley would too and he didn't. DRob is nearly a carbon copy. Maybe you have to add a million per over the two years, but I don't think it's any higher than that. Even if you don't compare him to Conley, he certainly fits in the Allen Hurns and Andre Roberts category and they fetched in that range.

Not really sure why they're targeting a DE either if Ogbah is being retained. - Okafor sucks, aside from Ogbah and Clark there isn't much, and Spags likes a strong rotation there. I may be going for one a bit early, but I don't like a good portion of this DE class.

With how that offseason is shaping up, if they're targeting a LB it direly needs to be a Mike. - Hitchens was a mistake, no doubt about it. He's far too tentative, gets washed out, and doesn't attack lanes. I hate his ass in the middle as much as anyone. I'd rather make him a June 1 cut than project him on this roster another day. I've been contemplating the position more than any other and just can't foresee a perfect situation outside of drafting two linebackers early, and that's mostly because I don't think the top guys will be available in free agency. Most people want a CB early. I'm on the fence. I would not be opposed to double-dipping at LB and ignoring CB early in the draft, if not entirely, and using free agency to do the same old dance we have been of going after aging free agents. Hell, I wouldn't be opposed to bringing Claiborne back with Breeland.

Not really understanding the OL pick up. I think they're going to be ok at Guard, if Rankin can pick up where he left off before the injury. Ldt isn't leaving yet. I'd like an upgrade at Center, but that's what I'd use a mid round pick on in the draft. - Glasgow can play center, he started all of 2018 there. The Lions slid him to guard this year with Ragnow moving back inside to center where he's more natural. They've kind of bounce Glasgow around everywhere. Most people I know that are Lions fans are perplexed with how the Lions have handled, or really not handled, Glasgow. He's been good in all situations, but most loved him as the starting Center. I think he's more than a solid upgrade to Reiter, and that's how I project it with Rankins and LDT flanking him.


Is that enough for you? Kudos to all the work you put in on doing the OP, I just don't agree with the moves. - I appreciate your commentary on these alot, you normally have good insights. Razzing you a bit, but definitely a big thanks for chiming in with some things to think on!
Remarks in red, and thanks!
[Reply]
kccrow 11:35 PM 11-23-2019
Originally Posted by pugsnotdrugs19:
This

Id just bring Pennel back for cheaper. Paying big fatties is a dangerous proposition, they could get lazy quick.
Paying anyone outside of a QB a big contract is a dangerous proposition. They seldom play to it, and the ones that do usually were drafted by the team paying them that 2nd contract. That said, I'd rather be on the hook for 50 million than 100. Frank Clark is seriously a scary deal right now and I don't want two of those by adding Jones to it.
[Reply]
Chris Meck 09:25 AM 11-24-2019
We're really in need of at least two offensive line starters, and I would argue three. Both guards and center are subpar. That's why we can't run the ball, and they're shite at protecting Patrick. Drafting a RB when we haven't fully addressed that is literally a cart before the horse proposition. I get you signed one FA but honestly, No RB would be putting up numbers behind those three lame-asses.

I don't mind your FA pick-ups; they're alright and probably in the ballpark financially, but I'd argue that we are in more need at offensive line and LB than any other spots.
I too am unsure about Jones; it'll depend on how he goes the rest of the season. He's clearly underperformed so far, but the whole defense has while adjusting to the new scheme. If he and Clark get hot together down the stretch, the play-offs could be fun. If that happens then I'd pay him and roll on.
[Reply]
BryanBusby 10:17 PM 11-24-2019
:-) you're not going to flip your entire interior OL at once without some significant problems

Come the fuck on people
[Reply]
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