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Nzoner's Game Room>Nick Jacobs all 22 breakdown discussion
O.city 11:14 AM 10-01-2019
Figured we could have a thread breaking some stuff down from his films and discuss.
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pugsnotdrugs19 02:16 PM 12-03-2019
Originally Posted by DJ's left nut:
The fact that we're 'load managing' LeSean McCoy like he's some sort of ace up our sleeves in the post-season is equally baffling.

Apart from the fact that he's fumbled 3 times in a mere 84 carries, the guy doesn't have a second gear anymore.
McCoy still has some real agility to elude a defender in space. Certainly more than the alternatives. To me, Darwin has the best balance and can hit the smaller creases that our line creates. Damien is the best receiver, but can’t create yards unless it is via the cutback lane.

Darrel is a poor man’s Spencer Ware, and that’s why I’d just assume we IR his ass and sign Ware to fill that backup role.

This offensive line, like almost every other under Reid, cannot create big holes with any sort of consistency and therefore a RB who can’t create yards on their own is quite useless.
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Beef Supreme 02:20 PM 12-03-2019
Originally Posted by DJ's left nut:
The fact that we're 'load managing' LeSean McCoy like he's some sort of ace up our sleeves in the post-season is equally baffling.

Apart from the fact that he's fumbled 3 times in a mere 84 carries, the guy doesn't have a second gear anymore.
I think "load managing" in this case is the coach speak way of telling the press we benched his ass because he keeps fumbling.
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-King- 02:23 PM 12-03-2019
Originally Posted by DJ's left nut:
The fact that we're 'load managing' LeSean McCoy like he's some sort of ace up our sleeves in the post-season is equally baffling.

Apart from the fact that he's fumbled 3 times in a mere 84 carries, the guy doesn't have a second gear anymore.
Hes still our best back by far. He's slower but he's the only one that has actual vision and anticipation of where the hole is going to be.

Since all his fumbles came from behind I have a theory that his mind simply hasn't adjusted to the fact that he's slower and doesn't pull away from defenders as fast as he used too. So now he gets loose with the football too early not realizing he doesn't have as much separation from the defender that he used to have. The good thing is, I think he can adjust, the bad thing is I don't think it's something you can adjust to during a season.
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DJ's left nut 02:29 PM 12-03-2019
Originally Posted by pugsnotdrugs19:
McCoy still has some real agility to elude a defender in space. Certainly more than the alternatives. To me, Darwin has the best balance and can hit the smaller creases that our line creates. Damien is the best receiver, but can’t create yards unless it is via the cutback lane.

Darrel is a poor man’s Spencer Ware, and that’s why I’d just assume we IR his ass and sign Ware to fill that backup role.

This offensive line, like almost every other under Reid, cannot create big holes with any sort of consistency and therefore a RB who can’t create yards on their own is quite useless.
I had a line in there that I took out because it was a stretch and I couldn't come up with a good way to argue it.

I see McCoy as Marcus Allen if Allen were carrying the ball in oven mitts and didn't care for contact. Allen was always picking and prodding around the holes, waiting for something to come open and then throwing himself into it. And he wasn't really even TRYING to get through the line clean - he was just looking to get his 4-5 yards and go down. He knew he wasn't pulling away from anyone.

That's what McCoy should be doing. He should be leaning into his vision to get the tough yards. But we can't count on him to hold onto the damn football and he doesn't seem inclined to do that anyway. He keeps wanting to break one and he simply doesn't have the speed to do it anymore.

He has the vision and the savvy to be the kind of short yardage back Marcus was for us. I just don't think he has the desire (and he certainly doesn't have the ball-security).
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DJ's left nut 02:32 PM 12-03-2019
Originally Posted by -King-:
Hes still our best back by far. He's slower but he's the only one that has actual vision and anticipation of where the hole is going to be.

Since all his fumbles came from behind I have a theory that his mind simply hasn't adjusted to the fact that he's slower and doesn't pull away from defenders as fast as he used too. So now he gets loose with the football too early not realizing he doesn't have as much separation from the defender that he used to have. The good thing is, I think he can adjust, the bad thing is I don't think it's something you can adjust to during a season.
Of COURSE that's the problem. But it's a disease that spreads to more than just the fumbles. It makes him less capable of being the kind of guy we can rely on to just go get the 2-3 yards we need here and there.

Because that's not what he WANTS to do. Remember when Barry Sanders would dance around in the backfield, make 6 guys miss and then break one? Well slice both of Barry's Achilles with an exceptionally dull spoon, have Eric Berry's spirit guide be responsible for the rehab and then you'd have LeSean McCoy's efforts behind the line.

The guy just doesn't seem to have any interest in driving downhill and hitting a damn hole.
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-King- 02:43 PM 12-03-2019
Originally Posted by DJ's left nut:
Of COURSE that's the problem. But it's a disease that spreads to more than just the fumbles. It makes him less capable of being the kind of guy we can rely on to just go get the 2-3 yards we need here and there.

Because that's not what he WANTS to do. Remember when Barry Sanders would dance around in the backfield, make 6 guys miss and then break one? Well slice both of Barry's Achilles with an exceptionally dull spoon, have Eric Berry's spirit guide be responsible for the rehab and then you'd have LeSean McCoy's efforts behind the line.

The guy just doesn't seem to have any interest in driving downhill and hitting a damn hole.
Even if he's not our main ball carrier, there's no reason he should be getting less 3rd down snaps than Darrell Williams. I'm pretty sure we do defenses a favor by having Williams in trying to run routes and catch the ball over McCoy.
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O.city 02:47 PM 12-03-2019
Originally Posted by DJ's left nut:
He's coming from the quarterbacks right and knifing underneath him to get to the left. You say I'm being hard on Reiter but consider what you're asking of Williams to get over to that hole. That wasn't a play where he was taking a hand-off between the LG/LT; he would've had to do a jump stop that almost took him backwards after having to swing around Mahomes to take the handoff. This after first getting his shoulders square because of the play design.

Now if Reiter had actually held his ground instead of losing a step, that cutback MIGHT have been possible. But immediately at contact w/ Hankins, Reiter gets driven back a yard and that cut off any angle Williams had to make that bounce and get into that hole.

The dude ain't Jamaal Charles and asking him to make a cut like Jamaal isn't reasonable at all. Whether he saw that hole or not is immaterial (hard to know if he did) - he had no chance at getting over to it once Reiter got driven back at first contact.
I'm sure Sully or Aspenc8 or whoever that's more versed in this can clarify, but if I'm remembering correctly on that run when Mahomes shifts the back to the other side it's a numbers and angle game where you're running off the C.

Again, as PGM said, I'm usually hilariously wrong and my high school football education shows. But, Reiter not getting much push may make it tough, but I think that's supposed to come between the LG and C.
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O.city 02:50 PM 12-03-2019
If you're load managing McCoy (lol) the time for that is over.
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DJ's left nut 02:52 PM 12-03-2019
Originally Posted by O.city:
I'm sure Sully or Aspenc8 or whoever that's more versed in this can clarify, but if I'm remembering correctly on that run when Mahomes shifts the back to the other side it's a numbers and angle game where you're running off the C.

Again, as PGM said, I'm usually hilariously wrong and my high school football education shows. But, Reiter not getting much push may make it tough, but I think that's supposed to come between the LG and C.
I think you may be right, but in order for that to have worked, Reiter needed to get to Hankings outside shoulder and redirect him to make a hole.

Pause that clip at the 5 second mark and tell me that's a reasonable cutback for an average runner to make. It just isn't - that's a LeVeon Bell sort of cutback that would've had to have been made. If the plan was to create a hole between C/LG, then the C needs to get his man routed inside and all Reiter did there was get pushed backwards and cut that running lane off altogether.

Now by the same token, I may simply be asking too much of a mediocre player. That's a tough block for Reiter to make after he's snapping the ball and essentially giving away the split second advantage that an OL gets over the DL by knowing the snap count and the direction of the play. But that kinda gets back to my original point - we just need a better player there.

I think it's easier to find a C that could've held his own there than it is to find a RB who's adept at making jump cuts at speed.
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KChiefs1 03:00 PM 12-03-2019
Originally Posted by O.city:

Solid OL play.
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O.city 03:03 PM 12-03-2019
Originally Posted by DJ's left nut:
I think you may be right, but in order for that to have worked, Reiter needed to get to Hankings outside shoulder and redirect him to make a hole.

Pause that clip at the 5 second mark and tell me that's a reasonable cutback for an average runner to make. It just isn't - that's a LeVeon Bell sort of cutback that would've had to have been made. If the plan was to create a hole between C/LG, then the C needs to get his man routed inside and all Reiter did there was get pushed backwards and cut that running lane off altogether.

Now by the same token, I may simply be asking too much of a mediocre player. That's a tough block for Reiter to make after he's snapping the ball and essentially giving away the split second advantage that an OL gets over the DL by knowing the snap count and the direction of the play. But that kinda gets back to my original point - we just need a better player there.

I think it's easier to find a C that could've held his own there than it is to find a RB who's adept at making jump cuts at speed.
The more i look, you're right, it's RG and C where he's supposed to hit. There's a hole there, Williams is too slow.
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Mecca 03:09 PM 12-03-2019
What we have learned this year is if this team is going to insist on going with a pedestrian middle of the OL, they need a RB that isn't a JAG.
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DJ's left nut 03:21 PM 12-03-2019
Originally Posted by O.city:
The more i look, you're right, it's RG and C where he's supposed to hit. There's a hole there, Williams is too slow.
And 51 is blowing that up anyway. Because again, Hankins completely wiped out Reiter and kept his LB clean.

I'm not sure how fast you need Williams to be - that hole closed within a single stride of him taking the handoff. They were in the shotgun; dude had to close 2-3 yards before he even got back to the LOS. But that's why Reiter needs to hold at the point of attack, so that the LB has to make a choice (Pick one A gap or the other) and Williams can bounce off it.

But because Hankings pushed Reiter backwards, that sealed off the A gap to the LG side and left Williams with nowhere to go but through the RG side. And at that point, 51 was there waiting for him (as was Hankins).

Reiter killed the play, brah.
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Sully 03:31 PM 12-03-2019
Originally Posted by O.city:
I'm sure Sully or Aspenc8 or whoever that's more versed in this can clarify, but if I'm remembering correctly on that run when Mahomes shifts the back to the other side it's a numbers and angle game where you're running off the C.

Again, as PGM said, I'm usually hilariously wrong and my high school football education shows. But, Reiter not getting much push may make it tough, but I think that's supposed to come between the LG and C.
Man, there are a few things I just don't get about that play.
Disclaimer:I've coached for quite a while, but mainly on the defensive side of the ball. That said, there are a million football fans, coaches and non-coaches alike who are way betterthan me at diagnosing these things.
Disclaimer 2: None of us know the playcall or coaching points, so we are all just making (somewhat)educated guesses.
Disclaimer 3: I coach in HS. I think that some techniques and coaching points we use are probably different when telling a guy how to block a DT playing at Lee's Summit North that would be when blocking a DT in the NFL. I often hear from college and pro coaches it is all the same with very minor tweaks... I don't know what those tweaks are...
All that said...

To me it looks like a simple count.
3 blockers for 3 defenders on the left, 4 blockers for 5 defenders on the right (not counting Reek as a blocker). So it looks like the shift puts the back running straight inside zone to the left.
Here are the problems...
1. Mahomes footwork walls off the RB, almost forcing him to go nearside A-gap. If this was inside zone to the left, Reiter actually has made a decent block.
2. The back did make a distinctive cut back to the right. Seems like the numbers game alone should've kept that from happening. Did he not make a pre-snap read?
3. The RG's steps keep him from having any possibility to come off the block to a LBer. (I want to refer to disclaimer #2 and #3 here... I don't know what he was coached to do). If he takes a zone step, and doubles the DT to the backer, then there's a better chance for success on inside zone to the left.

Just one man's opinion.
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O.city 04:25 PM 12-03-2019
I'd have to go back and look, but it seems from my memory the Chiefs usually motion the back from one side to the other and run zone to the opposite side.
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