I don't get it. I tried to like it, but I don't find it remotely funny. The characters are not likable (aside from maybe Robert or Deb) and the "staring quietly = funny" schtick never got off the ground with me.
I tend to watch shows as reruns and began watching Raymond at the gym (it's usually on when I'm there). I've seen many of the episodes several times, and I still don't enjoy the show much.
What am I missing? I know I'm missing something because it was incredibly popular for years. It's like According to Jim without pretty girls and fat guys.
Originally Posted by Pitt Gorilla:
I appreciate the commentary, BL, as we tend to have similar takes on TV (although yours seem much more informed). I suppose part of the problem is that I can't identify with the characters. Ray likes to play golf, often at the expense of responsibilities to his wife and children. Granted, I know people like that, but it still isn't funny; it's sad. The mother's Aunt Bee-like arrogance (probably a bad comparison, but I disliked her in much the same way) is similarly aggravating. As previously noted, I liked the Deborah and Robert characters the best, but that isn't saying much.
Peter Boyle was far too talented to be in that cast.
But the best sitcoms of the past 20 years have the same central conceit, Seinfeld, both iterations of The Office, and Curb Your Enthusiasm. Deeply unlikeable people if we were to encounter them in real life. But as a passive observer with insight into WHY they are such insufferable pricks, or clueless buffoons, or oblivious hipsters, we identify with them and laugh. [Reply]
Originally Posted by Pitt Gorilla:
Two more shows I don't care to watch. King of Queens is ok, if for no other reason than Patton Oswalt and Costanza's dad (although his character is nowhere as good as it was on Seinfeld) are on the show.
King of Queens is ok. I consider it much better than Raymond. Not great though. The episodes vary quite a bit in quality. [Reply]
Originally Posted by Pitt Gorilla:
I appreciate the commentary, BL, as we tend to have similar takes on TV (although yours seem much more informed). I suppose part of the problem is that I can't identify with the characters. Ray likes to play golf, often at the expense of responsibilities to his wife and children. Granted, I know people like that, but it still isn't funny; it's sad. The mother's Aunt Bee-like arrogance (probably a bad comparison, but I disliked her in much the same way) is similarly aggravating. As previously noted, I liked the Deborah and Robert characters the best, but that isn't saying much.
Peter Boyle was far too talented to be in that cast.
See, I see Marie's 'arrogance' as insecurity. She's utterly dependent on being the center of her family's lives. She lives for all of them loving her cooking. She wants nothing more than for her sons' immediate reaction to all hardship to be planting their head in her bosom so she can hug them and tell them she'll take care of it. That's the source of the humor in her undermining Brenda trying to better herself as a cook. If there's someone nearby who can cook as well as her, her life no longer has any value. [Reply]
Originally Posted by Baby Lee:
But the best sitcoms of the past 20 years have the same central conceit, Seinfeld, Both iterations of The Office, and Curb Your Enthusiasm. Deeply unlikeable people if we were to encounter them in real life. But as a passive observer with insight into WHY they are such insufferable pricks, or clueless buffoons, or oblivious hipsters, we identify with them and laugh.
I thought about that angle as well, and I'm not sure I entirely agree. While the Seinfeld characters were supposed to be unlikable (by others around them), they really weren't. In fact, one could imagine being in that environment (among the four) and having a great time. I would argue that it is often the people who strongly dislike them that come off as "unlikable" (think Timmy and the chip or George's "in-laws"). Similarly with the office; it's characters like Dwight and Andy that make work survivable and fun. Carrell's character might not be "fun" in real life in that you might lose your place of work, but otherwise he would be fun (if eye-roll-worthy).
Larry David is incredibly unlikable on his show (and in real life?), no way around that one. However, he IS incredibly funny. If you watch him in an interview, everything that comes out of his mouth is genius. He is funny. Ray is not. [Reply]
Originally Posted by Baby Lee:
See, I see Marie's 'arrogance' as insecurity. She's utterly dependent on being the center of her family's lives. She lives for all of them loving her cooking. She wants nothing more than for her sons' immediate reaction to all hardship to be planting their head in her bosom so she can hug them and tell them she'll take care of it. That's the source of the humor in her undermining Brenda trying to better herself as a cook. If there's someone nearby who can cook as well as her, her life no longer has any value.
I understand the character (and appreciate Dorris Roberts as an actress), but that still isn't funny to me.
Where my logic might fall short is with Frasier. I didn't like that show for a long time and ended up loving it (I no longer catch reruns, though). It's difficult to "like" Frasier and Niles, but I did end up watching the show.
I can admit that odd things strike me as funny and my justifications for what I like would likely fall short. But, to me, these are funny/entertaining:
Arrested Development
30 Rock
Seinfeld
Curb
Will & Grace (the first 4 times/episode)
Reno 911 (the first 2 times/episode)
Frasier
The Office (although I no longer enjoy it as much as I do 30 Rock). [Reply]
Originally Posted by Pitt Gorilla:
I thought about that angle as well, and I'm not sure I entirely agree. While the Seinfeld characters were supposed to be unlikable (by others around them), they really weren't. In fact, one could imagine being in that environment (among the four) and having a great time. I would argue that it is often the people who strongly dislike them that come off as "unlikable" (think Timmy and the chip or George's "in-laws"). Similarly with the office; it's characters like Dwight and Andy that make work survivable and fun. Carrell's character might not be "fun" in real life in that you might lose your place of work, but otherwise he would be fun (if eye-roll-worthy).
Larry David is incredibly unlikable on his show (and in real life?), no way around that one. However, he IS incredibly funny. If you watch him in an interview, everything that comes out of his mouth is genius. He is funny. Ray is not.
The Seinfeld foursome aren't as much unlikeable as, as I said 'oblivious hipsters.' That is, they don't care about the approval of anyone outside their little huddle. If someone from the outside is aghast at them, "meh what are you gonna do, people are strange, let's go get some coffee." And yeah, it looks like a great time, because a lot of us in this era get a lot of satisfaction from having a circle of friends who look on the rest of the world as our little shared joke to chuckle over.
The British Office amps up the unlikeability of the boss/toady twosome. But still Dwight has strong sociopath moments, and Andy has serious kiss-ass syndrome.
It's not that they're totally and completely unlikeable, it's that the humor in the conceit of the show so often depends on their qualities that would be unlikeable in real life.
I guess you'd call it cringe humor, it's funny because everything is all awkward and you feel the need to laugh to diffuse the tension. [Reply]
Originally Posted by Pitt Gorilla:
I understand the character (and appreciate Dorris Roberts as an actress), but that still isn't funny to me.
Where my logic might fall short is with Frasier. I didn't like that show for a long time and ended up loving it (I no longer catch reruns, though). It's difficult to "like" Frasier and Niles, but I did end up watching the show.
I can admit that odd things strike me as funny and my justifications for what I like would likely fall short. But, to me, these are funny/entertaining:
Arrested Development
30 Rock
Seinfeld
Curb
Will & Grace (the first 4 times/episode)
Reno 911 (the first 2 times/episode)
Frasier
The Office (although I no longer enjoy it as much as I do 30 Rock).
Frasier had writing at least 10 times better than Raymond, so that helped. Up until season 8 or so, anyway. [Reply]
Originally Posted by Pitt Gorilla:
Good writing is incredibly important. That doesn't explain my (somewhat brief) infatuation with Reno 911, though. :-)
I think part of that cast had worked together for some period of time before that show, and they sort of had a chemistry with each other and could play well off each other. Almost like a sketch comedy act more than a show. [Reply]
Originally Posted by blaise:
I think part of that cast had worked together for some period of time before that show, and they sort of had a chemistry with each other and could play well off each other. Almost like a sketch comedy act more than a show.
I realize that and think I enjoyed the improv element more than anything else. [Reply]
