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The Lounge>****The Official 2019 STL Cardinals Thread****
BigRedChief 03:23 AM 01-10-2019
Cardinals announce 25-man Opening Day roster for the 2019 season.
Spoiler!

2019 Opening Day Line up
Spoiler!


Won the Central Division. Won the NLDS.

NLDS Playoff roster
Spoiler!

NLDS Playoff Game 1 starting lineup
Spoiler!

NLCS Game One Starting lineup
Spoiler!



[Reply]
Marcellus 01:39 PM 02-19-2019
Originally Posted by BigRedChief:
He has top of the rotation stuff. Just lacks the consistent focus to stay at that level. Maybe he should be put in as the closer? He has been consistently good when asked to just pitch and stay focused on one inning.

Rafferty and Mikolas are playoff caliber starting pitchers. I think we should bring along Reyes to get him ready to pitch in the playoffs. How ever they do that, save his innings to give us 5 innings in at least 3 games in the playoffs if needed.

Should have traded Wacha. If he somehow, someway ends up healthy at the break, the Cardinals should trade him. Consider yourself lucky. No way he finishes the season or helps us out in the playoffs, assuming we even get there.
C-Mart is hurt again, shutdown for 2 weeks because of shoulder weakness. Exact same issue as last season. No shocker there.
[Reply]
O.city 01:40 PM 02-19-2019
Originally Posted by DJ's left nut:
It's about respect, mang...

And God told him to take the biggest deal. God always tells them to take the biggest deal.
God must be a capitalist.
[Reply]
BigRedChief 01:45 PM 02-19-2019
Originally Posted by Marcellus:
C-Mart is hurt again, shutdown for 2 weeks because of shoulder weakness. Exact same issue as last season. No shocker there.
:-) Fuck didn't know that.
[Reply]
O.city 01:46 PM 02-19-2019
Of course he's hurt again.

He's always going to have issues with it. Look at him mechanically. He's a damn mess.
[Reply]
DJ's left nut 02:39 PM 02-19-2019
Originally Posted by O.city:
Of course he's hurt again.

He's always going to have issues with it. Look at him mechanically. He's a damn mess.
I don't agree. He's a little loud and I don't love his recoil rather than follow through, but he does a pretty good job with deceleration even with that thrown in.

He does a great job using his legs, he doesn't come off late, his timing and rhythm are good; I mean when you look past the noise and just watch him at key points in his delivery, he's constantly in good, athletic positions.

In an absolutely perfect world I'd have his arm slot up but that's because...well because I can't throw low 3/4s with any kind of velocity so it's absolutely insane to me that anyone else can. It's just pure 'tall pitchers with overhand curves are the dreamiest' bias.

I think that because Carlos has loud mechanics with a lot of flailing arms, they can create some inconsistency. But beyond the noise you see a guy that does a lot of things extremely well. Those mechanics aren't what is creating injury and if the Cardinals try to dick with them, they'll make it worse. I think the problem is that he has a physical issue somewhere that they simply haven't found. This is ALL kinetic chain stuff, every bit of it. Last season was a perfect example of a guy that had something get wonky on him and he spend every pitch trying to compensate. That's why those injuries worked all up and down his core - when he'd compensate someplace, someplace else would break down.

If he came to camp with shoulder weakness that's an indictment on 1) The Cardinals for not having him on a throwing program designed to get his arm into shape or 2) Carlos for not adhering to it.

Because now they're probably fucked. If they can't get his shoulder up to necessary strength before they need him to contribute, they'll see a replay of 2018 where he spends the whole season chasing maladies.

But I'd throw away the 'his mechanics are breaking him' thing, personally. They aren't - they're quite sound, if a bit noisy. But he's a pitcher and pitchers get hurt.
[Reply]
O.city 02:55 PM 02-19-2019
Originally Posted by DJ's left nut:
I don't agree. He's a little loud and I don't love his recoil rather than follow through, but he does a pretty good job with deceleration even with that thrown in.

He does a great job using his legs, he doesn't come off late, his timing and rhythm are good; I mean when you look past the noise and just watch him at key points in his delivery, he's constantly in good, athletic positions.

In an absolutely perfect world I'd have his arm slot up but that's because...well because I can't throw low 3/4s with any kind of velocity so it's absolutely insane to me that anyone else can. It's just pure 'tall pitchers with overhand curves are the dreamiest' bias.

I think that because Carlos has loud mechanics with a lot of flailing arms, they can create some inconsistency. But beyond the noise you see a guy that does a lot of things extremely well. Those mechanics aren't what is creating injury and if the Cardinals try to dick with them, they'll make it worse. I think the problem is that he has a physical issue somewhere that they simply haven't found. This is ALL kinetic chain stuff, every bit of it. Last season was a perfect example of a guy that had something get wonky on him and he spend every pitch trying to compensate. That's why those injuries worked all up and down his core - when he'd compensate someplace, someplace else would break down.

If he came to camp with shoulder weakness that's an indictment on 1) The Cardinals for not having him on a throwing program designed to get his arm into shape or 2) Carlos for not adhering to it.

Because now they're probably ****ed. If they can't get his shoulder up to necessary strength before they need him to contribute, they'll see a replay of 2018 where he spends the whole season chasing maladies.

But I'd throw away the 'his mechanics are breaking him' thing, personally. They aren't - they're quite sound, if a bit noisy. But he's a pitcher and pitchers get hurt.
I've just always thought he's too much of a pure arm thrower. I haven't really watched it broken down at all like you've said, so i'm probably way off, but he has always seemed a little "army" to me.
[Reply]
VAChief 03:15 PM 02-19-2019
Originally Posted by O.city:
I've just always thought he's too much of a pure arm thrower. I haven't really watched it broken down at all like you've said, so i'm probably way off, but he has always seemed a little "army" to me.
Nah, he is a slinger...very loose, his mechanics as DJ pointed out can get off line because he has a lot of movement, but I never viewed him as an all arm type guy.

Jason Motte...now that was an arm guy.
[Reply]
DJ's left nut 03:19 PM 02-19-2019
Originally Posted by O.city:
I've just always thought he's too much of a pure arm thrower. I haven't really watched it broken down at all like you've said, so i'm probably way off, but he has always seemed a little "army" to me.
The reason you think that is exactly why it isn't true.

People think he's an arm thrower because he comes off the mound so violently, but the reason he comes off the mound that hard is because he is driving hard off that back leg and firing his hips through so much that his drive leg comes swinging around when he lands. He uses a ton of legs.

His motion doesn't look the same as it did when he first came up, but back then he looked a TON like Bob Gibson. And Gibson eventually lost it when his lower half gave up up the ghost on him; pretty strong evidence of how much power he got from his lower half.

Think of it from a purely leverage perspective - a dude that's 6 ft tall throwing 100 mph from low 3/4 ain't doing that with just his arm. He needs his whole body in it. Someone like Wainwright could get away with that kind of thing a little more because he's coming from 6'5'' and straight over the top so he could be a little more army and still use long levers and gravity to do the work. Carlos, because of his stature and arm slot, has to use his body or he'd be throwing 87.
[Reply]
DJ's left nut 03:26 PM 02-19-2019
On the flip side - I have no earthly idea how Chris Sale's arm is still attached. Anything I can think to look at on him is...wrong. He throws with a crossfire delivery, he doesn't use his legs nearly as much as I'd like, he brings that ball way behind his body and then whips it through with all the stress on his elbow. He never looks to truly get on top of the baseball (something that I think makes Martinez's mechanics look worse than they actually are) - just everything about watching him throw a baseball at 97 is painful. I have no idea how he's still on one piece.

I will say that if you compare his mechanics now with the Red Sox to what they were with the Chisox, you can see some real big differences. He uses his lower half better, balance is better at the top of his delivery, his arm comes through cleaner and more on top of his pitch. He looks a loooot better than he did and perhaps that's why he's still ticking, but man - the damage he did in his White Sox days has to catch up to him at some point, right?
[Reply]
O.city 03:34 PM 02-19-2019
Originally Posted by DJ's left nut:
The reason you think that is exactly why it isn't true.

People think he's an arm thrower because he comes off the mound so violently, but the reason he comes off the mound that hard is because he is driving hard off that back leg and firing his hips through so much that his drive leg comes swinging around when he lands. He uses a ton of legs.

His motion doesn't look the same as it did when he first came up, but back then he looked a TON like Bob Gibson. And Gibson eventually lost it when his lower half gave up up the ghost on him; pretty strong evidence of how much power he got from his lower half.

Think of it from a purely leverage perspective - a dude that's 6 ft tall throwing 100 mph from low 3/4 ain't doing that with just his arm. He needs his whole body in it. Someone like Wainwright could get away with that kind of thing a little more because he's coming from 6'5'' and straight over the top so he could be a little more army and still use long levers and gravity to do the work. Carlos, because of his stature and arm slot, has to use his body or he'd be throwing 87.
Quite likely true.

It's probably a little "carlos is hurt" fatigue leaking into my eval. Fuck if I know.

I've never been a huge fan. I just hate guys that have stuff but struggle to throw strikes.
[Reply]
O.city 03:35 PM 02-19-2019
Originally Posted by DJ's left nut:
On the flip side - I have no earthly idea how Chris Sale's arm is still attached. Anything I can think to look at on him is...wrong. He throws with a crossfire delivery, he doesn't use his legs nearly as much as I'd like, he brings that ball way behind his body and then whips it through with all the stress on his elbow. He never looks to truly get on top of the baseball (something that I think makes Martinez's mechanics look worse than they actually are) - just everything about watching him throw a baseball at 97 is painful. I have no idea how he's still on one piece.

I will say that if you compare his mechanics now with the Red Sox to what they were with the Chisox, you can see some real big differences. He uses his lower half better, balance is better at the top of his delivery, his arm comes through cleaner and more on top of his pitch. He looks a loooot better than he did and perhaps that's why he's still ticking, but man - the damage he did in his White Sox days has to catch up to him at some point, right?
Kinda wonder if it's just so genetically driven at that point that it won't matter?

I mean, these guys are the elites of the elites. They're just different.

Same thing with Mahomes throwing a football. It just is.
[Reply]
DJ's left nut 03:47 PM 02-19-2019
Originally Posted by O.city:
Kinda wonder if it's just so genetically driven at that point that it won't matter?

I mean, these guys are the elites of the elites. They're just different.

Same thing with Mahomes throwing a football. It just is.
Scherzer.

Guy had a lot of shoulder issues; some at Mizzou and then again in AZ and Detroit. Nothing ever serious but a lot of nagging soreness that kept AZ from ever being convinced he could be a long-term starter (and had Mizzou bouncing him in and out of the rotation at times to keep him healthy).

I still don't think his mechanics are the way you'd teach it but again - low 3/4's bias on my part. He separates well, doesn't pull back too far, very good balance and drive. But ultimately as he's gotten older and stronger, his body can just...do it. Somehow he can almost 'push' the pitch uphill as he's delivering it. He's like Sale in that he just never seems to be on top of the ball but when your body can do it, it can do it.

What always blew my mind was Jose Fernandez getting hurt. I loooooved the way that guy threw. Mechanics looked stellar, body type was built to eat innings. I never got the impression he was overthrowing - just looked like a born 220 inning/season guy and of course he blows his arm out (then died). The only thing he did that I don't like is the same thing Martinez does - that damn recoil. Just let your arm fall through.

I love Syndergaard's mechanics but he's had some issues. DeGrom blew out his arm in the minors. I like Greinke a ton and he's been healthy. Verlander's how you'd teach it but Verlander had a 2-3 year period where he was fighting various maladies. I mean that guy has prototype 'classic' mechanics (to my laypersons eyes) and even he hasn't been 100% healthy.

Pitching is just a bitch and a half and these guys get hurt. All you can do is ride 'em till they buck ya.
[Reply]
O.city 04:17 PM 02-19-2019
Originally Posted by DJ's left nut:
Scherzer.

Guy had a lot of shoulder issues; some at Mizzou and then again in AZ and Detroit. Nothing ever serious but a lot of nagging soreness that kept AZ from ever being convinced he could be a long-term starter (and had Mizzou bouncing him in and out of the rotation at times to keep him healthy).

I still don't think his mechanics are the way you'd teach it but again - low 3/4's bias on my part. He separates well, doesn't pull back too far, very good balance and drive. But ultimately as he's gotten older and stronger, his body can just...do it. Somehow he can almost 'push' the pitch uphill as he's delivering it. He's like Sale in that he just never seems to be on top of the ball but when your body can do it, it can do it.

What always blew my mind was Jose Fernandez getting hurt. I loooooved the way that guy threw. Mechanics looked stellar, body type was built to eat innings. I never got the impression he was overthrowing - just looked like a born 220 inning/season guy and of course he blows his arm out (then died). The only thing he did that I don't like is the same thing Martinez does - that damn recoil. Just let your arm fall through.

I love Syndergaard's mechanics but he's had some issues. DeGrom blew out his arm in the minors. I like Greinke a ton and he's been healthy. Verlander's how you'd teach it but Verlander had a 2-3 year period where he was fighting various maladies. I mean that guy has prototype 'classic' mechanics (to my laypersons eyes) and even he hasn't been 100% healthy.

Pitching is just a bitch and a half and these guys get hurt. All you can do is ride 'em till they buck ya.
It's the running back of baseball IMO. Just the nature of what you're doing, your body is going to break down. It's kind of inevitable.

It's also why I think the Cards have screwed up so many times not moving on from some of these guys for every day guys. They're good at developing pitching and identifying it. But they hold it to long and it implodes.
[Reply]
O.city 04:18 PM 02-19-2019

Cards exec John Mozeliak not totally thrilled with Carlos Martinez's winter training regimen: "Obviously, there’s a history with Carlos’ shoulder and it would be probably in everybody’s best interest if he maintained a constant or perpetual approach to that program."

— Mark Saxon (@markasaxon) February 19, 2019




Sounds like that's on Carlos.
[Reply]
DJ's left nut 04:19 PM 02-19-2019
Originally Posted by DJ's left nut:
If he came to camp with shoulder weakness that's an indictment on 1) The Cardinals for not having him on a throwing program designed to get his arm into shape or 2) Carlos for not adhering to it.
Well Mr. Mozeliak just announced with authority who's fault HE thinks it is....

Cards exec John Mozeliak not totally thrilled with Carlos Martinez's winter training regimen: "Obviously, there’s a history with Carlos’ shoulder and it would be probably in everybody’s best interest if he maintained a constant or perpetual approach to that program."

— Mark Saxon (@markasaxon) February 19, 2019



John sounds...not thrilled...with Carlos's off-season dedication to his training/throwing regime.

Like I said, there's no reason for Carlos to have come into camp with a weak shoulder. It sounds like the Cardinals believe he sat a little too much ass this off-season and now he's simply not ready to throw.

EDIT: You're getting so much better at this, O.! I still maintain it's because I say more than you do, but small victories...
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