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Saccopoo Memorial Draft Forum>Guys, it's not negotiable. You need to give Mahomes premium weapons in your mocks.
Direckshun 12:58 PM 02-26-2021
The Bucs were probably going to win the Super Bowl no matter what, but we are deluding ourselves if we are creating mock offseasons that don't give Mahomes at least 2 more premium weapons.

We routinely get excellent mock offseasons on this forum, and this week has been no exception, but c'mon.

You need to either give Mahomes a top flight #2 and #3 receiving option, or you need to give him a top flight #2 WR and a top flight #2 TE.

Teams are going to throw all their resources at Kelce and Hill in 2021. You can't snag one really good WR and wipe your hands clean of the problem -- you need multiple tertiary options because someone's going to get injured in or around 2021.

I know there's a ton of needs, but protecting Mahomes and giving him more weapons need to be at the top of the list, and if your mock offseason doesn't, it's not passing the smell test here.
[Reply]
el borracho 05:31 PM 02-26-2021
Originally Posted by kccrow:
New mock:

1. WR Terrace Marshall, LSU
2. TE Brevin Jordan, Miami
3. WR Seth Williams, Auburn
4. RB Kylin Hill, Mississippi State
4. WR Marquez Stevenson, Houston
5. OT Adrian Ealy, Oklahoma
5. ER Jonathan Cooper, Ohio State
6. FB Ben Mason, Michigan

Moar weapons.
An ER in the 5th?- Too many resources spent on defense, lol. I wonder what Spagnuolo would do. I keep picturing a Buddy Ryan/ Kevin Gilbride moment between Spags and Veach.
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kccrow 05:42 PM 02-26-2021
Originally Posted by el borracho:
An ER in the 5th?- Too many resources spent on defense, lol. I wonder what Spagnuolo would do. I keep picturing a Buddy Ryan/ Kevin Gilbride moment between Spags and Veach.
lol, I wouldn't want to be in that room. :-)
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MahomesMagic 06:17 PM 02-26-2021
Originally Posted by el borracho:
Weapons are great, but the priority has to be fixing the Oline this offseason. Given a choice, I would rather watch a couple of nobody receivers fall down and drop passes for an entire season than watch another single game where Mahomes gets his ass kicked like this years Super Bowl.

And for what it is worth, Seth Williams may be available much later in the draft. I'm not saying it completely reflects reality, but draftnetwork rates Williams as the 130th player in this years draft. He is commonly available to us with our 4th round pick. As is Sage Surratt and Josh Imatorbhebhe- all big receivers that could play the "x".

The Chiefs are talented enough to largely- not entirely- but largely discount need and draft BPA. If that is a WR in the 1st- fine. But there is no reason to freak out about weapons when we have Hill, Kelce, Hardman and CEH.

Draft Network and any place is fine to get a general feel for where prospects might go but they have even less info leaking to them than the normal dinosaurs at NFL.com and ESPN.

Last year they rated Michael Pittman way too low and Donovan Peoples-Jones too high. They seem to fall in love with mediocre or worse Michigan guys lately.

I'm not a mock drafter myself. Hard to know where people end up going.

I would say Seth Williams gives a Marques Colston or smaller Brandon Marshall play style. If we could grab him late 2 awesome. I suspect his value will be higher and we might have to move higher in the 2nd to secure him.

If would draft him we make our weapons scary and let's stop listing Hardman as someone keeping other teams up at night.
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staylor26 06:30 PM 02-26-2021
Originally Posted by MahomesMagic:
He isn't in the rankings you see, sure.

Neither was Michael Pittman and ended going early 2nd.

Seth Williams has WR 1 upside. You don't wait till the 3rd for that.

I do want to make sure there are no character, maturity flags but his tape says Draft Me.
He’s a good prospect, but none of the more reliable guys in the business have him close to that high. Most have him in the top 100, some outside of it.

Pittman going in the 2nd round wasn’t the least bit surprising. I don’t think that’s a good comparison.
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el borracho 06:48 PM 02-26-2021
Originally Posted by MahomesMagic:
I would say Seth Williams gives a Marques Colston or smaller Brandon Marshall play style. If we could grab him late 2 awesome. I suspect his value will be higher and we might have to move higher in the 2nd to secure him.

If would draft him we make our weapons scary and let's stop listing Hardman as someone keeping other teams up at night.
It's fun as a fan to develop draft crushes, but you should hope like hell that isn't how the Chiefs operate. If Seth Williams isn't available, then you take one of the other "x" receivers in the draft. I listed a few above, but I am sure there are many.

A successful draft would mean you identified a number of players that can help your team and you take them as you can throughout the draft. It would be a very bad strategy to identify one player that you have to have at all costs.
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MahomesMagic 06:52 PM 02-26-2021
Originally Posted by el borracho:
It's fun as a fan to develop draft crushes, but you should hope like hell that isn't how the Chiefs operate. If Seth Williams isn't available, then you take one of the other "x" receivers in the draft. I listed a few above, but I am sure there are many.

A successful draft would mean you identified a number of players that can help your team and you take them as you can throughout the draft. It would be a very bad strategy to identify one player that you have to have at all costs.
I didn't do that. But thanks for the advice!

:-)

If you looked at my earlier posts I listed Toney as another possibility. So no, I didn't say take one guy "at all costs".
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Urc Burry 08:15 PM 02-26-2021
Terrace Marshallís great uncle is Joe Delaney. Itís meant to be
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comochiefsfan 08:26 PM 02-26-2021
Originally Posted by Dante84:
I do think (hope) Clyde steps up this next season, hopefully with screens and in the pass game. So we'll have 3 legit weapons,

But I agree, we need a stud WR #2 (NOT KELCE), and a capable TE #2 as opposed to a JAG.

I'm okay with Hardman as WR 3 for the time being, so long as we have a clear stud in front of him and young talent to push him from behind.
One of the oddest things to me about our offense this past season was how little we got CEH involved in the passing game. With how important he was in that regard at LSU, I figured Andy would utilize him in that role a lot more than he ended up doing.
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kccrow 09:23 PM 02-26-2021
I've probably been a bit harsh on Direkshun but I have to say this...

I'll speak to finding starting-caliber players.

The hit rates suggest that taking a WR in the 2nd is as beneficial a play as taking one in the 1st. Either case is about a 50/50 proposition. By far the safest pick in round 1 is OLine but Oline is the safest pick across day 1 and 2. It just so happens to be extremely safe in round 1 and statistically, that's where you'll get a starting LT in the NFL if you want one.

The only positions that hit as badly as WR in round 1 are DL and RB. Coincidentally, CP wants either DL or WR in 1. The chances of success on either are lower than any others.

I'm not saying it's wrong, I'm just saying the odds aren't necessarily as favorable. I've always been one to shoot for the moon on talent but I've been burned badly in thinking many a 1st round receiver would be good in the NFL only to see them suck ass.

I've come to not support a 1st round receiver. If you want to hack away in the 2nd, go for it.

I support TE in the 3rd. That's the sweet spot. Any earlier and you're usually robbing yourself of more impactful positions. The only time I'd advocate a TE earlier is if you don't have a good one and there's a hell of a talent sitting there, but even then it can be fools gold. There is also a high hit rate in the 5th.

For those of you that want a LB, you absolutely shouldn't bother after the 4th round and the earlier the better.

After TE, the best position to take late swings on is DB or OL. Veach has repeatedly done so, and it has support statistically.

As for the adding weapons approach, I think the best-case scenario is to get an X and #2 TE. I think, with the state of the cap and the other holes on this team, you take shots on unrealized talent in FA and pick up a guy like John Ross. You have to face that you can't just go about an entire offseason banking on adding a bunch of weapons. If you add a WR in FA, then you're not adding at another position that you need to address in the draft. It makes it hard to allocate multiple resources to the same position. I don't know how you can think that the Chiefs should get a FA WR, and then also spend a high pick on it to go with a mid-round or something combination similar. You simply cannot allocate resources like that.

There are too many holes, not just this year but next. You have to address the offensive line. It's a must. The holes are nowhere near as bad now as they'll be next year. You have to try to knock off a couple of those now and a couple next season. Rolling with career backups as starters only work so much for so long.
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MahomesMagic 10:18 PM 02-26-2021
Originally Posted by kccrow:
I've probably been a bit harsh on Direkshun but I have to say this...

I'll speak to finding starting-caliber players.

The hit rates suggest that taking a WR in the 2nd is as beneficial a play as taking one in the 1st. Either case is about a 50/50 proposition. By far the safest pick in round 1 is OLine but Oline is the safest pick across day 1 and 2. It just so happens to be extremely safe in round 1 and statistically, that's where you'll get a starting LT in the NFL if you want one.

The only positions that hit as badly as WR in round 1 are DL and RB. Coincidentally, CP wants either DL or WR in 1. The chances of success on either are lower than any others.

I'm not saying it's wrong, I'm just saying the odds aren't necessarily as favorable. I've always been one to shoot for the moon on talent but I've been burned badly in thinking many a 1st round receiver would be good in the NFL only to see them suck ass.

I've come to not support a 1st round receiver. If you want to hack away in the 2nd, go for it.

I support TE in the 3rd. That's the sweet spot. Any earlier and you're usually robbing yourself of more impactful positions. The only time I'd advocate a TE earlier is if you don't have a good one and there's a hell of a talent sitting there, but even then it can be fools gold. There is also a high hit rate in the 5th.

For those of you that want a LB, you absolutely shouldn't bother after the 4th round and the earlier the better.

After TE, the best position to take late swings on is DB or OL. Veach has repeatedly done so, and it has support statistically.

As for the adding weapons approach, I think the best-case scenario is to get an X and #2 TE. I think, with the state of the cap and the other holes on this team, you take shots on unrealized talent in FA and pick up a guy like John Ross. You have to face that you can't just go about an entire offseason banking on adding a bunch of weapons. If you add a WR in FA, then you're not adding at another position that you need to address in the draft. It makes it hard to allocate multiple resources to the same position. I don't know how you can think that the Chiefs should get a FA WR, and then also spend a high pick on it to go with a mid-round or something combination similar. You simply cannot allocate resources like that.

There are too many holes, not just this year but next. You have to address the offensive line. It's a must. The holes are nowhere near as bad now as they'll be next year. You have to try to knock off a couple of those now and a couple next season. Rolling with career backups as starters only work so much for so long.
I like the precision you've put into value here but ultimately you have to let the draft come to you.

This draft has a lot of OL prospects but the fact is we might just see a bunch go before our pick.

If it is tackle and WR both valued the same I am with you on tackle.

It might not fall that way and we need to just draft really good players at

OL generally
WR
DE
LB

Let me ask you this. If tackle is that important would you consider a trade up for one?

How far up the board round 1?
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Stryker 10:39 PM 02-26-2021
First, who gets cut - prior to the draft or June 1 cuts
Second, who is available in FA after said cuts across the league?
Third, how much $$$$ do we have after said cuts?
Fourth, who do the Chiefs draft if the first 3 scenarios play out?

This to me, IMO, are factors that will make or break Veach's legacy - face it Chiefs Kingdom. this is his pivotal moment. Just my .02

To be honest, after what I witnessed in the SB LV game, we need a lot to take place before we can get back to the SB. I am proud of our Chiefs to go back to the SB but, that was an incredible embarrassment.
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kccrow 01:16 AM 02-27-2021
Originally Posted by MahomesMagic:
I like the precision you've put into value here but ultimately you have to let the draft come to you.

This draft has a lot of OL prospects but the fact is we might just see a bunch go before our pick.

If it is tackle and WR both valued the same I am with you on tackle.

It might not fall that way and we need to just draft really good players at

OL generally
WR
DE
LB

Let me ask you this. If tackle is that important would you consider a trade up for one?

How far up the board round 1?
I agree, the board may not fall how you want it and you're not going to just take a tackle to take one. I have my opinion on who I would and would not but it may vary from everyone else's. I couldn't prioritize a WR over any of the guys I would take in round 1 there but I can see if some do.

Honestly, I consider LT the most important position after QB for an offense. You go off Reid, he wants two great tackles. I'm with him. You can scheme/help on the inside. You can roll a QB out. You can't do anything when your QB is getting shit on from the edge.

So the one thing the Chiefs will know by April that I won't is the progress of Fisher, which could play into it. I have my doubts about his future and us seeing him be the player he was. Could he come back okay? Absolutely. And if he does, you're extending him to yet another big contract. I just don't prefer to see the Chiefs ignore the pillars of the team based on hope.

I'm in a very small minority that would move to 14 with a 1st and 4th/3rd to get Darrisaw if he's there. Two late 1sts for another decade of good tackle play is worth every penny of draft capital to me.

There are those that prefer to wait and see how things go, and I fully understand it. I'm not going to pound the table hard for a trade up but its something I think the Chiefs would be wise to do. I think they have their RT of the future in Niang. Lock up a LT and you could be sitting pretty damn good at the position for the bulk of Mahomes' career.

I think some good pass rushers will fall into the 2nd round and even 3rd round this year. Take one and improve another important aspect of the defense. I'm not as worried about WR under Ried, honestly. He'll get some guys he likes. He's always found ways to make guys productive, he doesn't need a stable of all pros. Hell, go WR in the 2nd if you want, I don't care. Late 1st round receivers don't have a good track record. I'd rather see a trade down if they wait and there isn't a tackle there.
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htismaqe 03:04 AM 02-27-2021
Originally Posted by el borracho:
Weapons are great, but the priority has to be fixing the Oline this offseason. Given a choice, I would rather watch a couple of nobody receivers fall down and drop passes for an entire season than watch another single game where Mahomes gets his ass kicked like this years Super Bowl.
The literally had one starter playing in the Super Bowl. ONE.

A lot of this is overreaction.

If Fisher and Schwartz come back, the offensive line suddenly goes from being a glaring weakness to a minor need.
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htismaqe 03:05 AM 02-27-2021
Originally Posted by kccrow:
SO MUCH THIS.

I just got done arguing the same in my mock thread. The Chiefs do need a couple of additional pieces. A WR to play the X, a #2 TE. Sure. But the goal has to be fixing the O-line, particularly tackle. Schwartz probably comes back in 2021, which will give time for Niang to come back in from his COVID vacation and get ready to be Schwartz' heir at RT. They need to replace Fisher. They need to figure out OC and the future at OG. I don't think they can do all of it in one year, but they better do the most important thing: address the long-term validity at both OT spots.
What are you going to do if the long-term answer at the OT spots are Fisher and Niang?
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kcbubb 10:36 AM 02-27-2021
Originally Posted by htismaqe:
What are you going to do if the long-term answer at the OT spots are Fisher and Niang?
This is valid and Reid will know how to estimate the risk of the oline at the draft. If we draft a tackle, then that probably means it was bpa or that he considers the health of those tackles a high risk. If we draft someone else, heís probably thinking we are ok at tackle. Keep in mind that getting a wr that can get open quickly will help the oline. Mahomes often holds the ball too long. We need a shifty wr. Iím not sure who that is but Iím tired of seeing mahomes throw passes hot and hardman not even looking.
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