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View Poll Results: In this scenario what would you do as a parent?
Get the abortion? 7 20.00%
Try to carry the baby to term? 21 60.00%
If yes on 1, Get it at week 12 before confirmation 4 11.43%
If yes on 1, Get it at week 16 amnio only confirmation 4 11.43%
If yes on 1, Get it week 17 to 22 with 100% confirmation 3 8.57%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 35. You may not vote on this poll
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Washington DC and The Holy Land>Real Talk: Abortion For or Against
Nirvana58 09:38 AM 07-08-2020
You just went to the doctor and found out you and your wife are 12 weeks along with a baby boy. However, they ran an NIPT blood test and say that you are 84% likely that the baby you are having has Edwards Syndrome.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edwards_syndrome

If you don't know what that is I linked the wiki page. Summary is this is basically the worst disease imaginable that I can think of. The average life span of children born with this is 3 to 14 days. Most babies are born still born if they even make it that far. It is even worst for male children who it seems to effect even more severely. Basically this is every parents worst nightmare.

The doctors can't 100% confirm until you receive an amnio and ultra sounds. This can be around 17 to 20 weeks along in your pregnancy. Even for a rush screening with amnio only you won't be able to get the results and make a decision on the abortion till 16 weeks if your lucky.

You can get a CVS earlier but doctors pretty much retired that for the NIPT test that you already received.

No matter your stance on abortion what do you do in this scenario? I am asking you to put yourself in the parents shoes and state your answer. This is not some hypothetical. People have to make this choice every year.

I have 2 questions for you. I will try to link the poll but never done one so we will see what happens.

Do you get an abortion or take it to delivery which most likely will be a still born or have an average life span of 3 to 14 days?

If you do decide to get an abortion when do you do it? The longer you wait the less humane it is but can you abort a child without 100% certainty it has this disease?

You can explain your reasoning or any questions in the replies.
[Reply]
Just Passin' By 06:03 PM 07-08-2020
Originally Posted by Nirvana58:
Which is a pivot. Because in this situation the baby will never have the ability to consent. Even if you spent millions of dollars keeping them alive with the best care. The beat all odds and by a miracle to live past there first year. The will never have the cognitive abilities to understand this conversation.

If people want to talk about assisted suicides for the terminal or the old. That is definitely an interest conversation but doesn't apply here.
It's not a pivot, it's not a claim that both examples are exactly the same, and it's not an attempt to change the conversation to the question of when we should start taking out the fogies. It's just a note that the underlying question is the same.


As I said in different words, I think your question is a worthwhile one, and one that invites introspective thought because, for a lot of people, it's really going to come down to two aspects of morality, or three if you consider the counter to be a different aspect.
[Reply]
Nirvana58 06:07 PM 07-08-2020
Originally Posted by El Lobo Gordo:
If all babies in that spot could speak for themselves and they all said they wanted to live, I suspect you'd be against allowing them to be aborted.

If all babies in that spot could speak for themselves and they all said they wanted to die rather than live a life of pain and suffering, I suspect you'd be okay with allowing them to be aborted.

Fair assessment?

Well, those babies can't and most would never likely be able to speak for themselves. If you are going to take it upon yourself to speak for them, then you have to decide what error to risk making. What error is worse:

Error 1: Aborting a baby who would choose to live if it could choose.
Error 2: Not aborting a baby who would choose to die if it could choose.

I believe making error 1 is much worse than making error 2.
I can get behind that statement. I understand why you would choose Error 1. However, as a parent it is your job to speak for them until they are old or mature enough to adequately speak for themselves. Sometimes parents have to make unfair choices for their kids. Even if that choice kills you inside.

Also as the parent it is technically your fault your baby has that syndrome. It was either your egg or sperm that had the extra chromosome that will cause them so much pain. So you do bear some responsibility to their current situation.
[Reply]
Over Yonder 06:08 PM 07-08-2020
Originally Posted by stevieray:
We don't get to play God.
This is where I stand. But I would be willing to listen to ideas about ZERO percent chances of survival/viability. If there is even a very slim chance, the child is allowed to live.

I'm even pretty nervous about that stance because we would have some highly educated idiot find some weird loophole that would welcome in murder by choice again. I think it was Detoxing that made the joke about stretch marks. I can see that being a reality. Like the mother claiming " I am gonna be forced to kill myself if I get a stretch mark!!" Or something similar. Well, now the mothers life is in jeopardy so we must off that little parasite in her belly!! For the sake of the mother, obviously! We are just tore up and distraught over that poor little parasite up in there :-) (heavy sarcasm).

That's my stance on abortion in general. But to the specific question in the OP, I don't think the hypothetical question allows for a zero percent chance of survival/viability, so it's an easy senerio for me.
[Reply]
El Lobo Gordo 06:11 PM 07-08-2020
Originally Posted by Nirvana58:
So if we are walking in the woods middle of no where. You fall and break your leg. I leave you their to die because I didn't cause the fall. Do I not share some responsibility of your pain and death?
The way I envision that scenario, I say by not trying to save me, you bare some responsibility for my death.
[Reply]
Just Passin' By 06:16 PM 07-08-2020
Originally Posted by Nirvana58:
So if we are walking in the woods middle of no where. You fall and break your leg. I leave you there to die because I didn't cause the fall. Do I not share some responsibility of your pain and death?
Originally Posted by El Lobo Gordo:
The way I envision that scenario, I say by not trying to save me, you bare some responsibility for my death.
You guys are now getting into duty to act, which is not the same issue.
[Reply]
Nirvana58 06:18 PM 07-08-2020
Originally Posted by Just Passin' By:
It's not a pivot, it's not a claim that both examples are exactly the same, and it's not an attempt to change the conversation to the question of when we should start taking out the fogies. It's just a note that the underlying question is the same.


As I said in different words, I think your question is a worthwhile one, and one that invites introspective thought because, for a lot of people, it's really going to come down to two aspects of morality, or three if you consider the counter to be a different aspect.
It is very interesting looking at the poll results and comparing them to real world. Some of it might be grandstanding and people would make a different decision if actually put in this position.

It could also be that this board leans more right and pro life than the rest of America. Which is kind of scary seeing how much farther left this board has become since I originally joined.

However, some case studies following pregnant women diagnosed with Edwards syndrome have an abortion rate of around 78%. Some studies even show that to be much higher.

I hope more people answer the poll and we see what the numbers end up shaking out too. Either way there is no wrong answer here. It is a terrible situation and I could easily pick any of the options and make a case for it.
[Reply]
Nirvana58 06:20 PM 07-08-2020
Originally Posted by Just Passin' By:
You guys are now getting into duty to act, which is not the same issue.
See how easy it is to go down that rabbit hole. :-)
[Reply]
El Lobo Gordo 06:25 PM 07-08-2020
Originally Posted by Nirvana58:
I can get behind that statement. I understand why you would choose Error 1. However, as a parent it is your job to speak for them until they are old or mature enough to adequately speak for themselves. Sometimes parents have to make unfair choices for their kids. Even if that choice kills you inside.
In life, you can't always make a decision that you know is the "right one". You lack the necessary information. in those spots you can usually choose to risk making the less serious error though. People don't realize it or incorporate it into their decision making, but when face with a lot of unknowns, choosing to minimize the risk of making the more serious error is usually a good strategy.

Aborting a healthy baby is much worse than allowing an unhealthy baby to come to term. Aborting an unhealthy baby that would want to live is much worse than carrying an unhealthy baby that would want to die to term.
[Reply]
Nirvana58 06:34 PM 07-08-2020
Originally Posted by stevieray:
I get that..doesn't equate to murder.
You believe that getting an abortion is murder. That is your right and you can state that.

Attacking me for putting a real life scenario that many people have had to go through as ghoulish and murder for my own nobility is uncalled for.
[Reply]
BDj23 06:42 PM 07-08-2020
I'm not anti abortion. I think it's a disgusting thing to celebrate and should be reserved for (normally) serious circumstances like the one OP presented. Personally, I would never want my wife to get one unless something extraordinarily debilitating was to happen to the child or her.

But I'm not trying to stop anyone from getting one, go ahead, if you can live with yourself afterwards. I just don't want to pay for it.
[Reply]
Nirvana58 06:49 PM 07-08-2020
Originally Posted by El Lobo Gordo:
In life, you can't always make a decision that you know is the "right one". You lack the necessary information. in those spots you can usually choose to risk making the less serious error though. People don't realize it or incorporate it into their decision making, but when face with a lot of unknowns, choosing to minimize the risk of making the more serious error is usually a good strategy.

Aborting a healthy baby is much worse than allowing an unhealthy baby to come to term. Aborting an unhealthy baby that would want to live is much worse than carrying an unhealthy baby that would want to die to term.
I guess I would make my decision based on what I would want if I was that unhealthy baby.

If you had Edwards syndrome and were given the choice with your knowledge of the disease. Would you want to born?
[Reply]
El Lobo Gordo 07:05 PM 07-08-2020
Originally Posted by Nirvana58:
I guess I would make my decision based on what I would want if I was that unhealthy baby.

If you had Edwards syndrome and were given the choice with your knowledge of the disease. Would you want to born?
Before I answer, lets frame the question a little more accurately:

I am a prenatal human being with Edwards Syndrome. Would I want someone to kill me?

My answer is no.

As a side note, someone who you might remember that ran for president fairly recently has child with Edwards Syndrome who recently turned 12.

https://www.liveaction.org/news/bell...tible-life-12/
[Reply]
Just Passin' By 07:11 PM 07-08-2020
Originally Posted by El Lobo Gordo:
Before I answer, lets frame the question a little more accurately:

I am a prenatal human being with Edwards Syndrome. Would I want someone to kill me?

My answer is no.

As a side note, someone who you might remember that ran for president fairly recently has child with Edwards Syndrome who recently turned 12.

https://www.liveaction.org/news/bell...tible-life-12/
I think there's another big takeaway in that article.

Originally Posted by :
Up to 80 percent of babies with Trisomy 18 survive heart surgery and 50 percent are still alive 16 years later, explained Dr. Hammel. With proper care, Trisomy 18 is not “incompatible with life.” Once the Santorums were able to access health care for Bella, they began to help other families as well.
I don't have verification of his numbers, but that would obviously be a game changer in dealing with this syndrome.
[Reply]
wazu 07:17 PM 07-08-2020
Originally Posted by Nirvana58:
I guess I would make my decision based on what I would want if I was that unhealthy baby.

If you had Edwards syndrome and were given the choice with your knowledge of the disease. Would you want to born?
Yes.
[Reply]
El Lobo Gordo 07:36 PM 07-08-2020
Originally Posted by Just Passin' By:
I think there's another big takeaway in that article.


I don't have verification of his numbers, but that would obviously be a game changer in dealing with this syndrome.
As long as we are playing hypotheticals.....you are not conceived yet. As it happens two couples are getting their bumps and grinds in. You get to choose which couple conceives you.

Couple A: Barrack and Michelle
Couple B: Rick and Karen.

I choose B and its not even close. Can anyone explain why couple A is a bad choice?
[Reply]
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