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View Poll Results: In this scenario what would you do as a parent?
Get the abortion? 7 20.00%
Try to carry the baby to term? 21 60.00%
If yes on 1, Get it at week 12 before confirmation 4 11.43%
If yes on 1, Get it at week 16 amnio only confirmation 4 11.43%
If yes on 1, Get it week 17 to 22 with 100% confirmation 3 8.57%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 35. You may not vote on this poll
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Washington DC and The Holy Land>Real Talk: Abortion For or Against
Nirvana58 09:38 AM 07-08-2020
You just went to the doctor and found out you and your wife are 12 weeks along with a baby boy. However, they ran an NIPT blood test and say that you are 84% likely that the baby you are having has Edwards Syndrome.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edwards_syndrome

If you don't know what that is I linked the wiki page. Summary is this is basically the worst disease imaginable that I can think of. The average life span of children born with this is 3 to 14 days. Most babies are born still born if they even make it that far. It is even worst for male children who it seems to effect even more severely. Basically this is every parents worst nightmare.

The doctors can't 100% confirm until you receive an amnio and ultra sounds. This can be around 17 to 20 weeks along in your pregnancy. Even for a rush screening with amnio only you won't be able to get the results and make a decision on the abortion till 16 weeks if your lucky.

You can get a CVS earlier but doctors pretty much retired that for the NIPT test that you already received.

No matter your stance on abortion what do you do in this scenario? I am asking you to put yourself in the parents shoes and state your answer. This is not some hypothetical. People have to make this choice every year.

I have 2 questions for you. I will try to link the poll but never done one so we will see what happens.

Do you get an abortion or take it to delivery which most likely will be a still born or have an average life span of 3 to 14 days?

If you do decide to get an abortion when do you do it? The longer you wait the less humane it is but can you abort a child without 100% certainty it has this disease?

You can explain your reasoning or any questions in the replies.
[Reply]
El Lobo Gordo 12:13 PM 07-08-2020
Originally Posted by AdolfOliverBush:
Premise 2 and 3 could each be debated all day long by themselves.
Regarding Premise 2. We have understood the life cycle of many organisms including human beings for a long time now. A fetus is a human being in an early stage of its life cycle. This is a fact that is just as true as the earth is round. You can argue and debate whether or not a fetus is a person, but claiming it is not a human being is an error on par with claiming the earth is flat. It is a claim only a moron would make.

Regarding Premise 3. I would agree your notion of "you have to" isn't necessarily the same as my notion of "you have to". But "you have tos" should be consistent. If killing a two year old human being because he/she interferes with attending kollege is morally wrong then killing a 12 week old fetus so it doesn't interfere with attending kollege is also morally wrong.
[Reply]
MagicHef 12:16 PM 07-08-2020
The linked wikipedia page includes the following:

"a retrospective Canadian study of 254 children with trisomy 18 demonstrated ten-year survival of 9.8%"

So 3 days of life is not the best-case scenario.
[Reply]
El Lobo Gordo 12:28 PM 07-08-2020
Originally Posted by AdolfOliverBush:
Agreed, that's why the best answer is "Do what you want".
How many people say that and then pass laws forcing others to do what they want? Like forcing pharmacist to dispense the morning after pill
[Reply]
AdolfOliverBush 12:37 PM 07-08-2020
Originally Posted by El Lobo Gordo:
Regarding Premise 2. We have understood the life cycle of many organisms including human beings for a long time now. A fetus is a human being in an early stage of its life cycle. This is a fact that is just as true as the earth is round. You can argue and debate whether or not a fetus is a person, but claiming it is not a human being is an error on par with claiming the earth is flat. It is a claim only a moron would make.
Of course a fetus is biologically a human being, but it's clearly not a sentient being from the moment of conception. Without that sentience, it's little more than a blob containing human DNA.

Originally Posted by El Lobo Gordo:
Regarding Premise 3. I would agree your notion of "you have to" isn't necessarily the same as my notion of "you have to". But "you have tos" should be consistent. If killing a two year old human being because he/she interferes with attending kollege is morally wrong then killing a 12 week old fetus so it doesn't interfere with attending kollege is also morally wrong.
Technically, nobody ever has to kill a human being. That's not realistic of course, but there's nothing etched into the laws of physics that says humans must kill other humans.

As far as morals, that's another endlessly debatable topic.
[Reply]
Nirvana58 12:54 PM 07-08-2020
Originally Posted by MagicHef:
The linked wikipedia page includes the following:

"a retrospective Canadian study of 254 children with trisomy 18 demonstrated ten-year survival of 9.8%"

So 3 days of life is not the best-case scenario.
I'm going to go on a limb here and say that wiki might be wrong on this one. Every piece of information I have seen has at best a 10-13% survival rate to 1 year. That is even the ones that make it to birth. Statistics show that 1 in 5000 children born alive will have this disease.

Also in this scenario this baby is a boy. Which means their birth and survival rate is significantly lower.
[Reply]
Nirvana58 12:58 PM 07-08-2020
Originally Posted by Jenson71:
There’s no indication that a symptom of this disease is pain. Is that correct? If so, the decision to me is pretty simple because it is based on a bedrock principle that you don’t kill a human life except in either proportionate self-defense, defense of others or just war, or in extremely rare scenarios where senseless and extreme constant pain to an irrational human can be avoided.

There’s a chance your baby doesn’t have it until confirmed, so an abortion prior to confirmation seems senseless. An abortion after confirmation may be reasonable, but still violates the principle of no killing. In the worse case scenario, your child is still born, and you have no opportunity to spend time with your child while child was alive. That is vastly superior in my beliefs than killing the child prior to birth.
Based on the what issues this diseases causes in babies. It is pretty reasonable to assume that this baby if born alive will experience a fair amount of pain.
[Reply]
Nirvana58 01:01 PM 07-08-2020
Originally Posted by El Lobo Gordo:
If killing another human being is the only way to alleviate suffering that human being is enduring, we have to do it?

What about full term already born babies with Edward's Syndrome? Should they be killed?
Sadly this is basically what they do. They try to keep the baby comfortable but most medical professionals don't take steps to keep the baby alive.

So by purposing not trying to keep them alive is that the same as killing them?
[Reply]
Just Passin' By 01:03 PM 07-08-2020
Originally Posted by :
best case scenario live for a couple days
is wrong




https://patient.info/doctor/edwards-...trisomy-18-pro

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/edwards-syndrome/

https://syndromespedia.com/edwards-syndrome.html

https://www.webmd.com/baby/what-is-trisomy-18
[Reply]
BWillie 01:08 PM 07-08-2020
I actually find both sides have reasonable arguments for and against

Economically, abortion is by far the best option. Forcing poor ppl to raise kids without the resources doesn't turn out well most of the time.

But morally, I can definitely see why it would or even should be viewed as negative
[Reply]
Nirvana58 01:11 PM 07-08-2020
Originally Posted by Just Passin' By:
is wrong




https://patient.info/doctor/edwards-...trisomy-18-pro

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/edwards-syndrome/

https://syndromespedia.com/edwards-syndrome.html

https://www.webmd.com/baby/what-is-trisomy-18
There is always outliers. If you want to get in the specifics. The oldest boy to live with Edwards syndrome made it to age 21.

I believe 80% of the children born with this disease are female. Almost all that make it past a year are also female. Statistics for males with this disease are not very good.

But if people want to split hairs on best case scenario. Which we can get into quality of life and how to care for them if they beat all the odds.
[Reply]
lawrenceRaider 01:14 PM 07-08-2020
I have a cousin who was told she should have an abortion because her son wouldn't live to be a year old due to a birth defect. He's now ten, and while things haven't been what anyone would call easy, he is a fantastic kid who is beating the odds, so far.

So, carry to term is the right answer.
[Reply]
El Lobo Gordo 01:18 PM 07-08-2020
Originally Posted by AdolfOliverBush:
Of course a fetus is biologically a human being, but it's clearly not a sentient being from the moment of conception. Without that sentience, it's little more than a blob containing human DNA.
It seems to me you are trying to argue that the set of human beings who deserve moral protection should be limited to the set of human beings who are also persons. Why do we need to narrow the set? If the reason we narrow the set is just so that we can have abortions what is the point in even pretending we have some sort or morality? How would that be any different than just deciding that the set of human beings that deserves moral protection doesn't include the jews?

Also consider this: When you are under general anesthesia you are just a piece of meat. Person-hood or sentience is a transitory state. If it is okay to kill non-sentient beings for convenience then it is okay to kill you for convenience when you are non-sentient...like under general anesthesia.
[Reply]
Just Passin' By 01:19 PM 07-08-2020
Originally Posted by Nirvana58:
There is always outliers. If you want to get in the specifics. The oldest boy to live with Edwards syndrome made it to age 21.

I believe 80% of the children born with this disease are female. Almost all that make it past a year are also female. Statistics for males with this disease are not very good.

But if people want to split hairs on best case scenario. Which we can get into quality of life and how to care for them if they beat all the odds.

You were slanting a question by making false statements about the underlying facts. I'm not saying you were doing that on purpose, and the supplied information may have been news to you, but now you're trying to skim over that, minimize the survivability, and attack quality of life, rather than just acknowledging an obvious and significant error.


Don't be that guy.
[Reply]
scho63 01:22 PM 07-08-2020
FOR aborting Liberals and LWNJs and RINOs

AGAINST aborting Conservatives and True Republicans/Libertarians.
[Reply]
El Lobo Gordo 01:24 PM 07-08-2020
Originally Posted by Nirvana58:
Sadly this is basically what they do. They try to keep the baby comfortable but most medical professionals don't take steps to keep the baby alive.
This is called palliative care


Originally Posted by Nirvana58:
So by purposing not trying to keep them alive is that the same as killing them?
Palliative care is not a cause of death. Abortion is a cause of death.
[Reply]
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