Dude, we've been knowing each other on this site for a loooong time.

That's why I feel I can say to you, "Don't be catty." You and I both know that circular arguments go nowhere.

Re-signing? Okay. Keep on the roster at until they break down entirely? Not so much. (And, remember, I love those players.) Life is rife with subtleties ... it's not all black & white. There's Sherman Williams Greige, too.

FAX
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2013 Houston was just as good but got hurt. 2015 Houston was in many ways BETTER when he got hurt.

Dude got hurt - shit happens. The Chiefs made the right gamble on Houston and they got burned. Had Dorsey had an opportunity to sign Houston at below his market after the 2013 season and passed, I'd listen to arguments that he fucked up.

But that's not what happened. Houston flashed all-pro talent in 2013, got injured and wanted to be paid a record contract. Dorsey understandably made him play a healthy season before giving him that contract. Then the dude got hurt on a completely flukey play and simply never recovered.

I'm not sure what you need Dorsey strung up for here. He handled Houston as well as he possibly could have.
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Berry wasn't an aging player at the time. Matter of fact, he was regarded as a top 2 safety in the league. He was paid accordingly. He earned it at the time. It didn't work.

So now in hindsight, "OH GAWD DORSEY SUCKS AT CONTRACTS"

Watch. Just watch. I've been posting on this forum since '05. I know EXACTLY how this shit will go.

This defense won't seem substantial improvements unless they get a rookie blessing and some huge moves. There's no talent on this defense.

And a year or two from now (especially if Tyrann tears an ACL or has another serious injury) this place will be blowing up about how bad that contract was.
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So much talk about people that aren't Chiefs anymore.

The butthurt is strong!
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They had to decide if Houston had become an elite pass rusher, or if he'd had an elite season. Make him the highest paid linebacker in history or sell high.

What matters in decisions like this is making the right evaluation of the player. If you have a guy under your roof for 4 or 5 years and don't have the kind of player he is figured out, you're in a bad place.
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And just like with any large contract, a team will shed it if it doesn't work out.

Yet certain posters around here act like Dorsey was incapable of shedding a bloated contract and "Thank God Veach is here to do it!"

The same guy that cut Maclin and Bowe is incapable of cutting Houston and Berry?

Guys like Hali and DJ at the time, were ALWAYS going to come off the books and people were acting like Dorsey had put the team in cap hell.

It's ridiculous.

Meanwhile, Veach has signed injury history-guys in Watkins and Mathieu to big time $$$ and .....crickets....

And Watkins injury history, just one season in, has already reared its ugly head.

It's a double standard. An un-realistic one at that.
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Actually, he's been on vacation...with his girlfriend. Google it.
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No. That's creepy.
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They made the right evaluation on the player. I mean damn, Houston as a shell of his pre-injury self is STILL a top 80 player in this league.

He got kicked by a teammate and his recovery went like shit. I just don't know how you hold any of that against Dorsey. He made a decision on a long-term deal that had every earmark of being a good decision until a fluke injury.

Unless you're just wholly opposed to ever extending elite players (and you don't appear to be), I just don't know what else you could have had the Chiefs do here. Most guys that come back as diminished from their pre-injury self aren't even NFL players. Houston, OTOH, was still among the best in the league. That says a lot about what he was before the injury.

That guy was a goddamn monster.
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Even if Houston had never gotten hurt again, which was likely in any case, he was *not* 2014 Houston. He probably would have returned to his 10-12 sack production and been poor value for the money even if he'd remained healthy.

You can call it hindsight if you want, but it's the GM and the staff's job to figure this out and make the correct decision. That includes making the right call anticipating a player's future production and their durability. He made the wrong one on both Berry and Houston.
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Dorsey was great at dumpster diving, but Veach can apparently hold his own in that department as well. Ward, Reiter, Erving, Damien Williams...

Yeah, all GMs can usually pick dudes out of the trash who fill a role on their new teams, but clearly what we're lacking now is starting talent on defense.

I hated his 2018 draft, but even I'm capable of recognizing that it has potential for redemption. I'm willing to see how Veach does with this extra draft ammo. And yes, I totally reserve the right to bitch if he does more stupid fucking trade ups for dudes like Breeland fucking Speaks when there is far more worthy talent available.
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I'm just trying to express a sense of realism.

People probably recognize that I'm no Dorsey fan. Far from it. In fact, I think he damaged us in ways that most casual fans will never know about. We still haven't fully recovered from the errors he made.

Having said that, I know he did some "good" things, too. And just as he doesn't deserve "all" the credit, he doesn't deserve "all" the blame. Many of the mistakes he made (and there were many) can be ultimately placed right at Clark's feet ... since Clark set up the post-Pioli, FO reporting procedures. Clark would admit to that. Dorsey's not my personal pariah.

As for Reid's involvement and his influence on decision-making prior to and during the 2013 season, I don't think any reasonable person would claim he just gave Dorsey the keys and said, "You drive, I'm taking a nap." That's not "hand-waving" ... that's just an observation that's rooted in common sense.

I'm concerned that the contributions of people like Wally and Ballard and (yes) Veach are discounted when you stake out the Dorsey Was Gold claim. It's illogical.

I'm not Edgar KC ... but I guarantee you that, when the Browns put their salary cap in the hands of Dorsey, they were begging for trouble. OBJ better catch a lot of passes, because right now, they're sitting on a financial time-bomb. (Assuming there's no strike or new CBA agreement.)

FAX
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I don't think he ever hits those sack numbers again, but you know that's not dispositive of a player's ability. His hurry/hit (total pressures) numbers in 15 were right at the same pace as they were in 14. Moreover, we started using him differently once his run-skills had fully developed and he'd become damn good in coverage.

That's why I said he was in many ways BETTER in '15. He'd become a complete football player who was every bit as efficient a pass-rusher in '15 as he was in '14, he simply wasn't being asked to attack as much in large part because of how good he'd demonstrated himself to be across the board.

Justin Houston was absolutely a force in '15. Von miller got 18.5 sacks in his 2nd year and has never hit that number again despite being a better player as he's progressed. He's now capable of wreaking havoc all over a football field. Justin Houston's career arc would've been virtually identical but for a fluke kick to the side of the knee. We know this because he'd demonstrated it over 3 seasons prior to that injury.
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Very.
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So you, like many others, basically just don't want to pay for talent.

Want an OBJ? You gotta pay for it.

Want a Tyreek Hill? You can bet your ass you'll pay for it.

I don't understand this salary cap fear that everyone has.

Good players cost money. You don't want good players? Fine.

Look at the Chiefs current defensive depth chart. That's what happens when you cut players that are worth money.

You get left with a barren cabinet.

Are you going to hold it against Veach when has to pay Chris Jones and Tyreek Hill record setting contracts?

Because it's gonna happen.

What if one gets hurt? Will it then all of a sudden be a bad contract?
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