More trade news: The #Chiefs are deep in talks with the #49ers on a trade for star pass-rusher Dee Ford, sources say. Things have escalated and this could get done by the end of the night. Ford needs to work out a new contract with SF, which is a big piece of this.
Originally Posted by duncan_idaho: DJ - I just disagree on how much value his backside run defense adds when he’s moving to DE. He’s just way too easy to neutralize and exploit in the run game.
They have a lot of options to improve the pass rush/front four.
They can use the draft capital gained to move up and grab one of Ferrell or Sweat or Gary if he slips a bit, and pair that with a cheap, short-term deal for a situational pass-rusher who can rotate in one passing downs (Shane Ray template). Then still grab secondary help in one of the next few picks.
They can use the combo of draft capital and freed up salary to go trade for a big upgrade at CB, then still add the cheap situational pass rusher and draft a DE at one of their existing picks.
Even in an Under? His pursuit is perfect in that role. And with yeah, the LT can get inside him and you can do some runs in the B gap there, but that's exactly what the under-shade is designed to help with; trying to hit that B gap with Jones there to close and your MLB/WLB behind it is a lot tougher, especially when you're almost allowing for the WDE to be taken out of that play and simply occupy the OT.
In a straight 4-3 I think you're right, but if our base is going to heavily feature the under alignments, he's a great fit. And we know he can be equally effective against the pass there because that's essentially how he was used in the sub-packages anyway when we went to those 2-4-5 alignments.
I just think you're whistling past the graveyard a LOT when it comes to the risk and development curve of rookie defensive linemen. The odds overwhelmingly suggest that you won't get a player of Ford's caliber even if you use your 1st rounder on a DL and that even if you do, it's gonna take 2-3 years to get there.
We've taken a massive step down on our DL here and the draft capital gained will do very little to resolve that. When our best hope is praying that Speaks and K-Pass don't suck as badly as they've appeared to over their NFL careers, that's a hell of a hail mary... [Reply]
Originally Posted by duncan_idaho:
I think Ford is one of the primary reasons if you play him at DE in an even front. Yes.
In a league built around throwing the ball, the number one way to beat Mahomes is to keep him off the field. Teams aren’t going to try to shootout with KC. They’re going to try to run the crap out of the ball and kill clock and limit possessions. So yeah, I think sacrificing some pass rush to be more stout against the run and less prone to giving up long, clock-killing drives is the way to go.
I don’t think they’re rolling with Kpassignon and Speaks. I think the plan is different.
Well, we've heard that Speaks is the replacement for Houston, so that's 1.
Other than that, where you gonna get these guys? Pass rushers go early and often in the draft, so unless you're trading up that kind of defeats that.
Then you go trading up and trading away these picks you've accumulated, which kind of defeats the purpose [Reply]
Originally Posted by pugsnotdrugs19:
Bad talent and bad coaching combined is how you get a defense as bad as what KC has last year. So that is what it is.
He got them a few really good to great players on D, but when Dorsey missed, he missed BIG. So many guys who belong in the AAF essentially.
No he didn't.
He missed on a 2nd and two 3rds, one of whom was showing promise before blowing out a knee.
He has 2 true misses on 1st day picks in 5 years running the Chiefs draft. That's a hell of a track record.
As for anything past the first 2 days - lord, just about ALL those guys belong in the AAF. That's the nature of the draft, man. [Reply]
Originally Posted by DJ's left nut:
Even in an Under? His pursuit is perfect in that role. And with yeah, the LT can get inside him and you can do some runs in the B gap there, but that's exactly what the under-shade is designed to help with; trying to hit that B gap with Jones there to close and your MLB/WLB behind it is a lot tougher, especially when you're almost allowing for the WDE to be taken out of that play and simply occupy the OT.
In a straight 4-3 I think you're right, but if our base is going to heavily feature the under alignments, he's a great fit. And we know he can be equally effective against the pass there because that's essentially how he was used in the sub-packages anyway when we went to those 2-4-5 alignments.
I just think you're whistling past the graveyard a LOT when it comes to the risk and development curve of rookie defensive linemen. The odds overwhelmingly suggest that you won't get a player of Ford's caliber even if you use your 1st rounder on a DL and that even if you do, it's gonna take 2-3 years to get there.
We've taken a massive step down on our DL here and the draft capital gained will do very little to resolve that. When our best hope is praying that Speaks and K-Pass don't suck as badly as they've appeared to over their NFL careers, that's a hell of a hail mary...
Yeah, even in an under. Yes, that helps with the b gap ... but it doesn’t help on the edge or with stretch plays.
You can bring a WR in motion and down block Ford out of the play. Consistently and easily. Then you have a TE and LT moving to the second level to clean up the vacated CB and the LB.
If you’re running away from him, again, a motioned WR can deal with Ford on the backside (probably even more dangerous in this situation because the CB has a lot more traffic to navigate.
I’ll take a Ferrell or Omenihu, etc. Day 1 in this scheme over Ford and take my chances. Chris Long, Shane Ray... other 1-year guys on small deals also can help.
Originally Posted by O.city:
Well, we've heard that Speaks is the replacement for Houston, so that's 1.
Other than that, where you gonna get these guys? Pass rushers go early and often in the draft, so unless you're trading up that kind of defeats that.
Then you go trading up and trading away these picks you've accumulated, which kind of defeats the purpose
I’m not looking for a Dee Ford clone. I’m looking for a versatile DE who can defend the run and pass, and there are several of those in this draft. Boss and Allen look like the only really elite pass rushers on Day 1, but that doesn’t mean they’re the only DEs worthy of starting Day 1.
Speaks will start at LE and I like his fit there. Just don’t think they’ll enter the season with him and Kpass as the starters and sole sources of pass rush. [Reply]
Originally Posted by PAChiefsGuy:
It goes both ways. It cracks me up when guys like you bash Dorsey for not drafting a lot of D talent but last season you claimed Sutton was the worst DC ever and defensive talent was not the issue.
Peters, Chris Jones and Ford were all drafted by Dorsey. Dorsey definitely could have done much better drafting on D but his drafting on the other side of the ball was so good it really helped mitigate that problem.
toward the end, you saw a coach who literally had no idea what to do with what we had. And when your coach doesn't know what to ask for, your GM has no fucking clue what to get. So far Dorsey has been absolute nails at D personnel for the browns. Wonder why that is.
The coaches apparently complained that Sutton was using kpass wrong. Adding Ragland, a guy Rex Ryan loved, shows sutton is still stuck on an obsolete defense. It took Reid going over Suttons head to get ward on the field. To veachs credit, he forced Sutton to adjust by building toward a defense sutton wasn't running. But the problem would've been better solved if Reid just fired sutton last year. That poor decision still fires me up. [Reply]
Originally Posted by duncan_idaho:
Yeah, even in an under. Yes, that helps with the b gap ... but it doesn’t help on the edge or with stretch plays.
You can bring a WR in motion and down block Ford out of the play. Consistently and easily. Then you have a TE and LT moving to the second level to clean up the vacated CB and the LB.
If you’re running away from him, again, a motioned WR can deal with Ford on the backside (probably even more dangerous in this situation because the CB has a lot more traffic to navigate.
I’ll take a Ferrell or Omenihu, etc. Day 1 in this scheme over Ford and take my chances. Chris Long, Shane Ray... other 1-year guys on small deals also can help.
I believe you're overstating a WR's ability to just neutralize Ford. The guy's incredibly athletic and has a very strong upper body. Unless he simply doesn't see the guy coming, he's gonna wreck WRs. And if he doesn't see the guy coming, ANYBODY can be cut block. But even still, the WR in motion brings his trail defender in there to muddy up the works. I mean you presume that the WR going into motion also draws company.
As for edge plays - again, the under specifically helps in that regard because now for a tackle to seal that edge he has to kick block around Ford. There are very very few guys that can get out and around Ford when he's on an outside shoulder. That first step quickness is a bitch to get a seal block on for an edge play. I think the under formation helps him MORE on stretch plays because he can now use his athleticism to force the edge and get the LT coming forward, a situation where he can now use his athleticism and balance to win the rep.
I don't see anything Ford does that is made worse by a move to a 4-3 under. The biggest problem he had was the edge when his help inside was in a 0/1 technique and Ford could get driven out to open the B gap. That's actually neutralized somewhat and now he can still be effective on the off-tackle runs. [Reply]
Originally Posted by Easy 6:
Love to see all of these changes taking place and I'm not sad to see him gone, but waiting until 2020 for that pick sucks ass
We had to wait for the 2nd rounder this year. 4 picks in the top 100 two years in a row will help rebuild the defense. [Reply]
Originally Posted by htismaqe:
So much talking about people that aren't even with the Chiefs anymore.
If you love Dorsey, go root for the Browns. He's made a ton of moves and hasn't won crap. John Dorsey is an offseason warrior!
And it was Veach that was all over Mahomes, not Dorsey. The most important and transformative pick the Chiefs have ever made, Veach made that happen. [Reply]
Why the fuck was he so incapable of finding and drafting a good starting LB during his time in KC?
I'm not even asking for a Luke Kuechly. Just somebody we could depend on to play adequate ILB next to or to replace Derrick Johnson. One would think given his expertise as a player that LB would be a position in which he would be able to spot decent talent.
Why is it that some coaches/GMs just can't seem to grasp or build up things that are their supposed expertise? John Elway doesn't know QBs. Dorsey doesn't know LBs. Brian Billick could never get a decent offense going in Baltimore.
I'm not complaining or trying to shit on Dorsey right now, even. I'm just making an observation about his scouting strengths. [Reply]