Originally Posted by DJ's left nut:
But Hyde isn't slow to the hole; that's just the product of being a veteran RB. Now if he ends up running tentative then he'll get cut. But he's never been that guy before - he's always been willing to drive at the hole once he has the ball.
He's slow past it, sure - but that's not the role we're talking about here. He's no sort of breakaway threat.
But again, we're talking about a very limited, specialized niche here. And if you need that guy, you need that guy and taking a dude that weighs less than 200 lbs and putting him into that role will A) fail and B) get him ground into dust in all likelihood.
Like I said - if you're lucky is just doesn't matter. If I'm the Saints I have no use for a power back; we'll be playing in Domes and down south almost every week. Gimme my speed. But that's not the Chiefs. The Chiefs could end up in a situation where they absolutely need a guy who's not gonna dance, who's not gonna need to get small and find a crevice so he can 'fall forward'.
They may need a guy that can just run as hard as he can where the hole is supposed to open and if that hole doesn't open he just just hit the motherfucker in front of him hard enough to move that pile forward. And if that's the case, Darwin Thompson is not gonna get that job done.
Pretty much, if Carlos Hyde is here it is more of an indictment on Darrel Williams than anything, they need to have a larger back that can be counted on if the weather is ass or to pick up short key yards. [Reply]
Originally Posted by DJ's left nut:
But Hyde isn't slow to the hole; that's just the product of being a veteran RB. Now if he ends up running tentative then he'll get cut. But he's never been that guy before - he's always been willing to drive at the hole once he has the ball.
He's slow past it, sure - but that's not the role we're talking about here. He's no sort of breakaway threat.
But again, we're talking about a very limited, specialized niche here. And if you need that guy, you need that guy and taking a dude that weighs less than 200 lbs and putting him into that role will A) fail and B) get him ground into dust in all likelihood.
Like I said - if you're lucky is just doesn't matter. If I'm the Saints I have no use for a power back; we'll be playing in Domes and down south almost every week. Gimme my speed. But that's not the Chiefs. The Chiefs could end up in a situation where they absolutely need a guy who's not gonna dance, who's not gonna need to get small and find a crevice so he can 'fall forward'.
They may need a guy that can just run as hard as he can where the hole is supposed to open and if that hole doesn't open he just just hit the mother****er in front of him hard enough to move that pile forward. And if that's the case, Darwin Thompson is not gonna get that job done.
Originally Posted by IUsedToBeATightEnd:
I'm didn't mean to be harsh on Damien. I'm being harsh on those who fail to grasp the difference between the two and HOW those productions were made.
I'm confident about Thompson as long as he can put on some mass without loosing much speed - which Tyreek manage to do so it may happen.
@ DJ's left nut, "force" (such as inertia/momentum) is the result of speed X mass, which is what makes me hope in Thompson.
The abilility to change direction abruptly and force tackles has more to do with responsiveness, fiber muscle quality and center of gravity anyway, besides being a natural attitude of course, and one which is hardly acquired through practice.
If it was just a matter of weight everyone would use tackles at running backs.
Yes, mass*acceleration. But that's my point w/ Hyde - in the 2 strides from him taking the handoff to the point of impact, there is little distinction between what Thompson gives you and what Hyde gives you in terms of that acceleration element. Thompson pulls away AFTER the hole, sure - but not before it.
And I'm not talking missed tackles either; again, that's open-field running. That's the kind of stuff that Thompson will excel at because he has excellent balance and runs with good pad level. I'm talking about what happens if you CAN'T get to the open field either A) because you don't need to or B) because conditions just won't allow for it.
I'm not saying that Hyde's more likely to break a tackle and cruise into the end zone. I'm saying that when he takes the ball at the snap and someone's beaten their guy at the line and is closing as he takes the handoff but you just need a yard, he's the guy that's gonna have the ability to drive that guy back at impact.
And I'm not saying this will be the case strictly because of his weight - if the guy's become tentative and is gonna try to dance there, then he's useless. He still needs to actually show that he's an NFL caliber back with the same willingness to take/deliver punishment that he's had in the past. It all presumes he's not washed. I'm saying I don't think he is and if that's the case, there's simply not a replacement for having more mass in some instances. And I want to have a guy like that in this backfield, be it Hyde or Williams or someone else - I want a guy that's gonna take the rock and just hit it with some weight behind it.
Ideally we never need him but we just might. [Reply]
Originally Posted by Mecca:
Pretty much, if Carlos Hyde is here it is more of an indictment on Darrel Williams than anything, they need to have a larger back that can be counted on if the weather is ass or to pick up short key yards.
I'd say if Williams is here that's an indictment on Hyde, but yeah, our points are the same.
If it's not Hyde, it needs to be someone that you can trust in that role if the need arises and with the possibility of taking 14-15 carries/gm if Williams goes down. I know some would give it to Thompson if Damien goes down but that's a LOT of risk in a season with clear SB aspirations - again, if he earns it, so be it - but don't just assume he will.
For what it's worth - I'd have taken Frank Gore in this role 100 times out of 100 over Carlos Hyde. You want a dude that's going to take what's there and can step up if called on (while being 100% unspectacular but steady as the sunrise) I give you Frank Gore. CJ Anderson would've also been interesting.
Hyde is nowhere near my first choice for this role, but I want SOMEONE in it. [Reply]
Originally Posted by Mecca:
Damian Williams is still probably going to see 60-70% of the time at RB, so I doubt this argument really matters.
That's a possibility.
If that happens we will have a one dimensional offense so the defenses wont give a shit who runs then ball and can concentrate on grinding Pat on every damn play.
Very good idea.
Somebody's missing the fundamentals of football here.
Let's not forget an MVP QB needs to stay healthy to lead a team to the Superbowl, and to have a long career such as the one we all wish on Pat. [Reply]
Originally Posted by DJ's left nut:
Yes, mass*acceleration. But that's my point w/ Hyde - in the 2 strides from him taking the handoff to the point of impact, there is little distinction between what Thompson gives you and what Hyde gives you in terms of that acceleration element. Thompson pulls away AFTER the hole, sure - but not before it.
And I'm not talking missed tackles either; again, that's open-field running. That's the kind of stuff that Thompson will excel at because he has excellent balance and runs with good pad level. I'm talking about what happens if you CAN'T get to the open field either A) because you don't need to or B) because conditions just won't allow for it.
I'm not saying that Hyde's more likely to break a tackle and cruise into the end zone. I'm saying that when he takes the ball at the snap and someone's beaten their guy at the line and is closing as he takes the handoff but you just need a yard, he's the guy that's gonna have the ability to drive that guy back at impact.
And I'm not saying this will be the case strictly because of his weight - if the guy's become tentative and is gonna try to dance there, then he's useless. He still needs to actually show that he's an NFL caliber back with the same willingness to take/deliver punishment that he's had in the past. It all presumes he's not washed. I'm saying I don't think he is and if that's the case, there's simply not a replacement for having more mass in some instances. And I want to have a guy like that in this backfield, be it Hyde or Williams or someone else - I want a guy that's gonna take the rock and just hit it with some weight behind it.
Ideally we never need him but we just might.
Sure, I get your point and I 100% agree that Thompson is not and will never be - no matter how much mass he puts on - the guy to plow through a hole which gets shut.
Unfortunately we had the back who could do both, break thru the hole and kill a couple backs on his way to the first down, and we let him go.
Good idea, bad idea, it was discussed at length and everyone is entitled to his own opinions. A back with such an attitude is not born every day though, and that is a fact, despite what some may believe.
So we will have to live with this. We will need more than one man to do what Hunt used to do last year, and our offense will be more predictable.
That being said could be Hyde and Thompson are the way to go.
Or we may buy back Kareem from the Browns LOL [Reply]
Originally Posted by IUsedToBeATightEnd:
That's a possibility.
If that happens we will have a one dimensional offense so the defenses wont give a shit who runs then ball and can concentrate on grinding Pat on every damn play.
Very good idea.
Somebody's missing the fundamentals of football here.
Let's not forget an MVP QB needs to stay healthy to lead a team to the Superbowl, and to have a long career such as the one we all wish on Pat.
What are you talking about? When Damien Williams came in as starter after the release of Hunt, he was one of the most effective RBs in the league. [Reply]
Originally Posted by IUsedToBeATightEnd:
That being said could be Hyde and Thompson are the way to go.
Or we may buy back Kareem from the Browns LOL
I was pretty savagely pissed that we cut Hunt and still believe his loss changed some of the character of the offense. Probably didn't matter against NE (and Damien is a much more stout runner than he's given credit for), but I hated losing him.
All that said, regardless of what 'the way to go' may be - we can both at least agree that running a backfield without a 'heavy' ball-carrier so that we can keep Tremon Smith on the squad is a bad idea, right?
What the !@#$ is the fascination with Tremon Smith, man? Did anyone see him with the ball in his hands? Even when the Chiefs twitter account is re-posting his 'highlight' clips on Twitter, you can see that there's just nothing there.
And this is when they're trying to hype the dude. It's like a movie trailer where they STILL couldn't find anything funny just to make the movie look watchable for 45 seconds.
Unless he shows a TON more, they've gotta cut him. [Reply]
