Because of all the interest in this thread, I've place all of the video content of Patrick Mahomes II's college career, and draft day goodness into a single post that can be found here. Enjoy! [Reply]
Originally Posted by Chiefspants:
Elway was the 2nd most important QB on the field for the Broncos in their Super Bowl win over the Pack.
I don't want to insult Elway's impact after that game, though. He decided to hire Vance Joseph over Kyle Shanahan in 2016 because of some dumb feud he was having with Mike at the time. Elway's contributions to Kansas City as a GM since 2015 can't be understated.
Yeah, elway's been a critical piece of the puzzle in putting the broncos on their current path. I'll give him credit for that. [Reply]
Originally Posted by Tribal Warfare:
In any system, and time period I'd say Marino can't really judge Mahomes because of the era he's playing in. Brady's a situational lucky, cheating bitch.
Originally Posted by crispystl:
I don't think I'd put him above Montana, but I always contend Steve Young is criminally underrated. He was extremely good during that stretch.
Originally Posted by tredadda:
Not a bad list but while Young was a better athlete than Montana I just can’t put him above Joe. Montana was just so good, especially when it mattered most. The guy almost overcame Marty being Marty and led KC to a SB despite being a shell of his former self.
Not knowing the team I have or am playing, I shaded a bit towards guys that have a little more elusiveness or mobility.
Montana behind a pristine line with a couple of premier weapons? Sure - I'd take that over Young. But with a spotty line and/or sub-average weapons? I'd prefer a guy in Young that I think can move around a bit, create some time/space/angles to make the play.
There are situations where Montana's the clear play, but I don't know what my circumstances are here so I have to prepare for less than ideal spots. And ultimately I think Young is closer to Montana under ideal circumstances than Montana is to Young under less than ideal circumstances. [Reply]
Originally Posted by DJ's left nut:
Not knowing the team I have or am playing, I shaded a bit towards guys that have a little more elusiveness or mobility.
Montana behind a pristine line with a couple of premier weapons? Sure - I'd take that over Young. But with a spotty line and/or sub-average weapons? I'd prefer a guy in Young that I think can move around a bit, create some time/space/angles to make the play.
There are situations where Montana's the clear play, but I don't know what my circumstances are here so I have to prepare for less than ideal spots. And ultimately I think Young is closer to Montana under ideal circumstances than Montana is to Young under less than ideal circumstances.
Montana was pretty mobile in his day until injuries decimated him. He was nowhere near what Young was as a runner, but he was no statue either. From a purely running standpoint, Montana was more like Mahomes. Both are very underrated in that regard. [Reply]
Originally Posted by tredadda:
Montana was pretty mobile in his day until injuries decimated him. He was nowhere near what Young was as a runner, but he was no statue either. From a purely running standpoint, Montana was more like Mahomes. Both are very underrated in that regard.
Montana was better than he was given credit for, but no he was not Mahomes. Mahomes is used as a genuine weapon and teams have to account for him when playing man coverage. They KNOW he'll find a spot and take off.
And Montana simply didn't have the range of throwing abilities that Mahomes has or Young had. Yeah, Montana could clear out, buy a little time and make a throw - but not like Young could.
And really, I think you have to combine eras to make a peak throwing Montana who's also mobile. It was in the mid-80s when he first hurt his back, right? That Giants hit that absolutely folded him. He didn't make his first All Pro team until '87 and I think that was a season or more after his back issues started and his mobility fell off.
There just wasn't a time where Montana was a pristine passer AND an asset with his legs, IMO. He was a good passer with some mobility, then he was a physically limited wizard with the football. [Reply]
Originally Posted by DJ's left nut:
Montana was better than he was given credit for, but no he was not Mahomes. Mahomes is used as a genuine weapon and teams have to account for him when playing man coverage. They KNOW he'll find a spot and take off.
And Montana simply didn't have the range of throwing abilities that Mahomes has or Young had. Yeah, Montana could clear out, buy a little time and make a throw - but not like Young could.
And really, I think you have to combine eras to make a peak throwing Montana who's also mobile. It was in the mid-80s when he first hurt his back, right? That Giants hit that absolutely folded him. He didn't make his first All Pro team until '87 and I think that was a season or more after his back issues started and his mobility fell off.
There just wasn't a time where Montana was a pristine passer AND an asset with his legs, IMO. He was a good passer with some mobility, then he was a physically limited wizard with the football.
All true. Joe never really ran for yardage or TDs. He'd scramble around and try to find an open receiver when he had to, but he just didn't run. But back then, when a QB tried to run down the middle of field the way these QBs do now, well that was open season for the defense. There was no "giving yourself up" at the end of the run.
And Joe definitely didn't have the array of arm angles nor the sheer arm strength that Mahomes has. or Steve Young's, for that matter. Though I do remember watching a Sorts Science episode (or whatever it was called back then) and they did an analysis of several QBs and found that Joe had the most efficient throwing mechanics of any QB in NFL history (up to that time). So Montana could throw a pretty deep pass, or laser one over the middle for 15-20 yards, he even threw some no-platform passes occasionally, but his bread-and-butter was the perfect form pass.
But what really set him apart as a passer imo was his ball placement. Every pass seemed like it was perfectly delivered so that it helped the receiver either stay in stride or allowed the receiver to protect himself from the inevitable crushing hit from the defender. He just never led a receiver into a big hit. All these years later, watching countless QBs, and I still have never seen anything like it. The closest in that regard is probably Mahomes, Brady or Manning. But Montana was just a wizard at protecting his receivers.
P.S. for one game, I'd probably take Favre over Rodgers. And I get that Rodgers is the better overall QB, and probably more consistently accurate, and overall makes better decisions. But Favre could just make miraculous things happen, and his teammates would run through walls for him. Not sure Rodgers could get that level of buy-in from his entire team the way Favre could. And Favre didn't need a great receiver, the way Rodgers seems to. Favre would just throw it; and let whoever it was try to make a play. I still remember that game he played against GB when he was a Viking. That throw to the back of the EZ, to whoever that was (Lewis?). That guy was just some faceless dude up to that point, and Favre just let it rip and made that guy a hero. I'll take that Favre over Rodgers in one gotta-have-it game. [Reply]
Originally Posted by DJ's left nut:
Montana was better than he was given credit for, but no he was not Mahomes. Mahomes is used as a genuine weapon and teams have to account for him when playing man coverage. They KNOW he'll find a spot and take off.
And Montana simply didn't have the range of throwing abilities that Mahomes has or Young had. Yeah, Montana could clear out, buy a little time and make a throw - but not like Young could.
And really, I think you have to combine eras to make a peak throwing Montana who's also mobile. It was in the mid-80s when he first hurt his back, right? That Giants hit that absolutely folded him. He didn't make his first All Pro team until '87 and I think that was a season or more after his back issues started and his mobility fell off.
There just wasn't a time where Montana was a pristine passer AND an asset with his legs, IMO. He was a good passer with some mobility, then he was a physically limited wizard with the football.
I agree with what you are saying and really wasn’t saying Montana was the runner that Mahomes was, just that both were sneaky good. Teams account for Mahomes scrambling, but not for him taking off on designed runs (thankfully). I also think Montana would have fared better had he played in this era vs the 80’s. Would I put him above Mahomes? Not a chance. I do see where you are coming from with Joe vs Young. [Reply]
Originally Posted by suzzer99:
Joe Montana TD-INT in 4 Superbowls: 11-0
Yeah, I think Montana was a lot more clutch than Steve Young in the playoffs. Way more game-winning drives and 4th quarter comebacks in the playoffs, much better TD to INT ratio in the playoffs. For that "clutch" reason alone, I would take Montana every time over Steve. They both had loaded rosters surrounding them, so it's pretty much an equal ground comparison. [Reply]